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Does Race exist?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by haroon, May 8, 2019.

  1. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    Maybe we should change the thread title to "Are you racist?". At least then we'd all be on the same page and aware of what game is being played.
     
  2. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    All kinds of primitive survival kit still exists, though, and imo the mere ability to identify categories based on optical differences is hardly that primitive a survival kit to begin with :)
    Much before you get to that there are more primitive, indeed pro-lingual stuff which remains and is quite decisive under some conditions. Most of our feelings aren't exactly analyzed past some degree, and feelings are certainly older and more primordial than any ability to form notions (which making categories based on optical difference is a synthesis of, and itself not near the first phase of human prehistoric ability to form notions).

    Imo trying to cancel something like ability to categorize based on form, with the supposed end to cancel racism, is a lot like trying to rehabilitate a murderer by giving them a lobotomy. Sure, if you manage to ruin their ability to think at all they likely won't go on killing, but that wasn't exactly a surgical strike (well, if you don't take into account the pun :) ).
     
  3. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    Obviously it is our empirical sensory tools, but that's only half of the point, let me rephrase my main objection here using your own sentence:

    "Using the ability to identify categories based on optical differences in order to generalized people based on observable physical pattern"

    Take for instance the observation that you have a blue eyes is not the problem, but it is to classify you inside "the blue eyes people" category, then to further build up some collective personality based on that variable, for instance what is the average income of "the blue eyes" in comparison with "the green eyes"? How prone "the blue eyes" to commit crimes in comparison to "the green eyes"? These information not without impact, it will be used to crafted the collective personality for instance "the blue eyes are mostly less successful and more prone to crime in comparison to the green eyes". This thinking shortcut might have its function to save our budd back then, but it's only serves as a mean prejudice now. Berzerker put a very good and honest wording for this:

    It is not the fact of its primordial traits of human that makes it dreadful, but how it corrupts the society with the false negative alarm that makes it bad. It's your old spyware system that delivered you a tons of false negative, resulting you to deletes so many important data in your computer.

    I can recognized your unique physical attribute without lumping you in a box of collective physical category that I precept to be your group, then subconsciously or consciously start to related you with certain subset group personality that already crafted within that category.
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Groups were already categorized according to other body/looks traits since antiquity :) For example Herodotos mentions how the Thracians had usually red hair, and the thracian gods were made in likeness of that. Eye colour is also noted persistently. Skin colour wasn't the only thing that helped form a category, and as already shown it wasn't a "the darker your skin tone, the more worthless/worse you are"; ancient greeks obviously didn't have a high regard for hyperborean europeans; those were regarded (as was to be expected) as pretty much feral. By contrast no writer i know of ever comments on persians having different skin tone from greeks (ancient period), and despite of that there are numerous accounts of persians deemed as pretty backward (for better or worse; i am merely noting that skin tone wasn't part of it at all).
    Shouldn't it follow logically that the ability to make a category out of such traits does not itself even have anything to do with racism?

    Famous individuals also were commented upon due to body/looks. For example Aesop is said to have had a considerably darker skin tone than the average for a greek, while Socrates by numerous accounts looked rather bizarre (iirc his skin tone was the usual for the area, though).
     
  5. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    I think the spirit of the ancient Greek were pretty much in a search for the arche, a really collective and vigorous hard work on that. They try to classify, questions and construct their surrounding reality. But the deconstruction of a concept, or we may say, the destruction of a concept is not necessarily counter progress, I think this is the very spirit of the Ancient Greek dialectics dynamic, in order to negates the old false thesis we must deconstruct it first.

    There should be so many factor to why they were less interest or maybe unable to categorized the Persian or North European. However lets said if a physical pattern of Persian and North European were defined, it will just bolstered the generalization and results racism for sure.

    The ideas of the backward Persian and the feral North European will get injected in the physical group pattern of Persian and North European, they can further associate the individual who belong to Persian physical group pattern with the trait backwarded, while the individual who belong to North European physical group pattern with being feral. It will get semiotically simulated

    Poor Socrates, I remember how Nietzsche deemed him to be evil and dismissed his ideas by the fact that he precept him to posses an ugly face, as he quoted one anthropologist stated that "monstrum in fronte, monstrum in animo" monster in face, monster in heart; it is in twilight of the idol IIRC. Sure we can laugh at that horrid generalization now, but we are pretty much still the same in a way.
     
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  6. abradley

    abradley Chieftain

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    It may not be scientifically correct but it sure is handy in many instances:
    I don't see any racism in calling him white.
     
  7. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    You really have an unbelievably unique thinking pattern, when you made a thread regarding the attacks on Christian in Srilanka, you are more concern about the victim and persistently critical regarding the religious back-ground of the shooter, to further scrutinized the whole belief system and the whole believer.

    However in this unique instance, when the Christian African American church suffered the same incidence, and nine Christian were killed, instead consistently concern with the victim, you are more critical on how the shooter is depicted of being white (which perhaps disturbs your "racial group"), while rest assured it will not scrutinized the whole white population like how the same incident might put the whole Muslim and Islam in a bad light. In fact this article just strengthen the argument that racialization of skin color might not be a good idea.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  8. abradley

    abradley Chieftain

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    Maybe I am not making myself clear.

    In Sri Lanka I condemned the Islamists, in Charleston I condemned the White racist and didn't see using the 'white' label as racist.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  9. Estebonrober

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    For many it does put all white people in a bad light, especially whne they get up tight about pointing out that it was an explicit right wing, white supremacist attack.
     
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  10. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    If i pointed out those "facts", without further analysis, i would consider myself a bad teacher, but i would also consider myself a bad teacher if i dismissed them. In addition, even if there are minor statistical variations in IQ among population subsets, there are still quite a few assumptions, generalizations, subconscious inferences and/or intellectual wackeries to get to inferior and subhuman.
    Sound like an act of individual and collective narcissism
    So what to do with these primordial traits of humans...it's not that easy to remove these old programs, just telling someone you are wrong generally does not work and worse, may produce a defensive response that only reinforces the [narcissistic] trait
    seems you are still equating "race" to "racism" and that this is the solution to the problem, that is, in any case where there may be a different attribute related to "race", we dismiss it as racism....isn't that a generalization as well? Also, are we making decisions to dismiss concepts rather than to further discuss them based on good and bad (?some "universal/objective/just" morality)?
     
  11. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Classifying people on "blue-eyed" and "green-eyed" is not different from classifying them on Brits and Germans, basing on their appearance and spoken language.
    The problematic part is not classification itself, but the "collective personality" assigned to group of people and prejudice against them.
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I have green eyes. Possibly due to the surrounding toxicity :)
     
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  13. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    Surroundings can certainly be toxic
     
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  14. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    My intention is not to claimed the IQ variation will drag down to a discrimination level of dehumanizing other group. But my base argument is that such grouping will lead to assigning unique individual to a collective personality/quality that lead to generalization. The fact that the green eyes believe themselves to be more intelligent than the blue eyes population by referencing to the statistical result, this leads to the believe that this quality are inherited quality for being blue eyes or green eyes. This kind of fallacious generalization can be anytime mislead to racism.

    Isn't that the aspect of racism? Actually I gives this example from this famous experiment that demonstrates how easily it is to assigned "collective personality" to any kind of random physical grouping, this experiment might demonstrate the extreme case. We just creating a language here, where being a brown eyes means certain subset of personalities, while the blue eyes means the other subset of personalities. And race classification not at all absent from the assumed generalization. When we heard the words Irish, African, Asian, we somewhat unconsciously assumed more than just physical differences.



    Actually many form of past discrimination toward certain group of people are somewhat relieved by doing exactly that, when competent institution (academic institution for instance) makes a strong campaign that negates racial classification this surely will affect the public opinion that later on will push the government.

    Well this is why I bring up the classification based on eyes color as an example, we can assigned any socio-cultural attribute to unlimited number of possible classification, but such assignment are baseless and uncorrelated.

    For instance to think that the Asian did well in Math is definitely not a racism, but it tell us two thing, first such conclusion is false positive, the second is, racism used the very same generalization pattern, but instead they use it to assigned negative attribute to the targeted group, and use the generalization to justify their discrimination and injustice treatment to the targeted group.

    Halfly agree Red Elk, assigning collective personality to racial classification is a problem, but classifying people based on race in socio-cultural level will eventually leads to that.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  15. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Warlord

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    To bring it back to the thread title though - do different eye colours exist?
     
  16. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    good joke I'm laughing at it, but dang it's such an awful strawman!
     
  17. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    What's so special about race, comparing to eye or hair color?
     
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  18. Naskra

    Naskra Chieftain

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    In WWII the army and navy noticed that their pilots who achieved ace status (5 kills) were blue-eyed quite disproportionately. Standardized tests in the '50s routinely asked eye-color
     
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  19. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    This is my whole point, we don't group people socio-culturally by their hair or eyes color. That's one, the second, race itself as a observable attribute is false, just recently during the Jakarta riot there was a social media uproar because they claimed there were Chinese paramilitary drafted and abusing the demonstrator, the irony is, they are actually Indonesian from the Sulawesi island, in particular Manado, who happened to have small eyes. This thing is stupid down to the core.
     
  20. haroon

    haroon Chieftain

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    We leave that as our past stupidity, can we do the same for race category?
     

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