Doviello+
- Thread starter Valkrionn
- Start date
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Probably not a bad way to put it. It just bothered me that her pedia entry made her obviously female, while you couldn't tell from the leader head. 
I finally got a new windows version and got to play the modmodmod for my favorite civ. I played two games. The first was a fractal, immortal, standard map size, normal speed game (I forgot to use AI no building requirements) and a pangea, deity, standard map size, normal speed, Ai no building requirements, AI no level requirements game. I played both games with Charadon. The first I won after about turn 220, the second after about turn 140, both a Conquest victory. I like a lot of mechanics especially the xp share code and the dueling mechanic. My city could finally do something reasonable: Slaughtering the weak ones in the pits and sending those that survived into the battle to protect the almighty Lucian or to become a killing machine like him once I researched bronze working.
Lucian is yet the problem as I assumed in my former post. Battle hardened gives him shock I for free after 4 turns and Combat II+III after the first kill. There is no city that can survive one of his early attacks especially as he soon gets the missing xp points for an upgrade for free and regenerates quick because of the scavenger promotion. Additionally after a certain point he rarely loses any hitpoints as mark of the wolf gives him 2 first strikes. Once he reaches heroic strength he is literally invincible.
Another problem is the AI as unlike in FFH it does not get free xp from Deity level. In FFH you have to act really quickly to avoid standing against more than one combat II warrior. In FF you always fight against unpromoted warriors and thus it was not hard to kill 4 civs until turn 80 in both games. Additionally the AI seems to research horribly. Decius of the Calabim really had enough time to research military techs until turn 110 (as I had to cross the whole continent to reach him) but all he had was bloodpets and a few horsemen. Not that Bronze Axemen would have helped against my troops consisting in Sons of Asenas, Lucian and a strength 8 combat V wolf pack (All at least Combat III, Shock II and March, some also Drill IV, City Raiders and/or Combat V), but just Bloodpets and 3 horsemen is miserable.
I would have liked to see more of your mechanics (especially your animal mechanics) and I could have if I had restricted myself by not attacking weaker opponents, but my opinion is that the game has to force you to use the later mechanics. I have to see: Lucian and Sons of Asena are not effective anymore and thus I need those mechanics to win the game.
My suggestions are:
1. Remove Battle hardened. Lucian was so strong that there was no real midgame (my Immortal game only lasted so long because I had to research Optics to attack the other continent. I already had killed all civs on my continent after about 100 turns) You save a lot of time by getting those missing xp for an upgrade, you virtually start with Shock I and thus don't even big efforts to kill the first city. Especially Heroic Strength makes Lucian invincible. Instead of this promotion I would make him an upgradable hero analogue to the upgrade mechanic of his civ. This way you strengthen the mid and end game and not the early game that is already very strong in the main game.
2. Change mark of the wolf. In combination with Lucian it is too strong. Lucian does not lose many hitpoints because of this promotion and he reaches 99% very quickly. Instead of 2 garantued first strikes the promotion should either grant 2 first strike chances or 1 first strike but 2 first strikes are definitely too much.
3. Give Mahala Industrious instead of Financial. Financial is incredibly boring and has no synergies with any mechanic of the Doviello. Industrious has a lot of Synergies with the Doviello namely the Dens. I always thought about ways to use the mechanic effectively and Industrious would let you build the Dens very quickly
4. Introduce some new promotions for animals. Animals can only use Combat V, Guerilla I and Woodsman I. After that you have to use that promotion that does nothing but regenerating your unit.
5. Not an issue for your modmod but for FF in general. Give the AI the XP boni they get in FFH. Fighting against unpromoted warriors makes your starting attacks too easy. Also the AI research patterns have to be improved. They need archery or Bronze Working to defend themselves. At least around turn 110 (turn 180 in my Immortal game) the AI should have more than warriors (and adepts for Kahd)
Lucian is yet the problem as I assumed in my former post. Battle hardened gives him shock I for free after 4 turns and Combat II+III after the first kill. There is no city that can survive one of his early attacks especially as he soon gets the missing xp points for an upgrade for free and regenerates quick because of the scavenger promotion. Additionally after a certain point he rarely loses any hitpoints as mark of the wolf gives him 2 first strikes. Once he reaches heroic strength he is literally invincible.
Another problem is the AI as unlike in FFH it does not get free xp from Deity level. In FFH you have to act really quickly to avoid standing against more than one combat II warrior. In FF you always fight against unpromoted warriors and thus it was not hard to kill 4 civs until turn 80 in both games. Additionally the AI seems to research horribly. Decius of the Calabim really had enough time to research military techs until turn 110 (as I had to cross the whole continent to reach him) but all he had was bloodpets and a few horsemen. Not that Bronze Axemen would have helped against my troops consisting in Sons of Asenas, Lucian and a strength 8 combat V wolf pack (All at least Combat III, Shock II and March, some also Drill IV, City Raiders and/or Combat V), but just Bloodpets and 3 horsemen is miserable.
I would have liked to see more of your mechanics (especially your animal mechanics) and I could have if I had restricted myself by not attacking weaker opponents, but my opinion is that the game has to force you to use the later mechanics. I have to see: Lucian and Sons of Asena are not effective anymore and thus I need those mechanics to win the game.
My suggestions are:
1. Remove Battle hardened. Lucian was so strong that there was no real midgame (my Immortal game only lasted so long because I had to research Optics to attack the other continent. I already had killed all civs on my continent after about 100 turns) You save a lot of time by getting those missing xp for an upgrade, you virtually start with Shock I and thus don't even big efforts to kill the first city. Especially Heroic Strength makes Lucian invincible. Instead of this promotion I would make him an upgradable hero analogue to the upgrade mechanic of his civ. This way you strengthen the mid and end game and not the early game that is already very strong in the main game.
2. Change mark of the wolf. In combination with Lucian it is too strong. Lucian does not lose many hitpoints because of this promotion and he reaches 99% very quickly. Instead of 2 garantued first strikes the promotion should either grant 2 first strike chances or 1 first strike but 2 first strikes are definitely too much.
3. Give Mahala Industrious instead of Financial. Financial is incredibly boring and has no synergies with any mechanic of the Doviello. Industrious has a lot of Synergies with the Doviello namely the Dens. I always thought about ways to use the mechanic effectively and Industrious would let you build the Dens very quickly
4. Introduce some new promotions for animals. Animals can only use Combat V, Guerilla I and Woodsman I. After that you have to use that promotion that does nothing but regenerating your unit.
5. Not an issue for your modmod but for FF in general. Give the AI the XP boni they get in FFH. Fighting against unpromoted warriors makes your starting attacks too easy. Also the AI research patterns have to be improved. They need archery or Bronze Working to defend themselves. At least around turn 110 (turn 180 in my Immortal game) the AI should have more than warriors (and adepts for Kahd)
WarKirby
Arty person
Financial isn't boring. it's the single most powerful (overpowered) trait in the game. And I personally think it'd be useful to keep your economy from collapsing, as conquerors tend to do.
I've never found out why others couldn't see she was female, I've always liked Mahala's leaderhead since it wasn't the usual female fantasy outfit, and I'm not only talking about the infamous "Battle Bikini", but also the usual breastplate that follows the female forms (there's a reason why breastplates had the shape they had, change it and you're sacrificing it's protective capabilities).Probably not a bad way to put it. It just bothered me that her pedia entry made her obviously female, while you couldn't tell from the leader head.
I'm not saying that every fantasy author/artist/gamemaker have to be completely historically correct or they are a lower lifeform, only that they should remember that there's a reason for most things and that they should think a little about why it was that way before changing it. This is especially true when it comes to warfare, since humans have a history of optimising our capability to hurt each other and discard anything that hinders our capacity to kill others, which is why I don't like when people think that plate armour is clumsy and cumbersome, if it's better to be unarmoured then they would have discarded it.
For 1), it seems to me that a good fix might be to make Battle-Hardened an Autoacquire promotion for Lucian upon reaching Bronze Working. That way, he would continue to be a viable unit midgame, but wouldn't be so ungodly at the beginning when all anybody has are unpromoted warriors.
For 3), I figured that the combo of Financial and Ingenuity was for the sake of promoting hordes of slaves to cannon-fodder duty. Likewise for Raiders.
Or city defenders after getting the Hardy promotions. Getting all three for +5 to defensive strength may require some waiting, but getting just the first and second means a +3 to defensive strength.
Opera
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,643
You're absolutely right. But try to think about it this way: what if the leaderhead doesn't show the leader ready for battle? Mahala certainly live in a harsh civilization but I guess they also have their spare time, that they aren't always bitting each other ears. In this case, the "it's cold!" argument seems more fitting because it's assumed it's generally cold where the Doviello supposedly live.
By the way, I think the original picture was correct too. It had a feeling of strong-not-pin-up leader. But I like the actual one more because it really says "Doviello". Maybe even more so since the Doviello are more "animals" because of the changes made by Valkrionn.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I finally got a new windows version and got to play the modmodmod for my favorite civ. -snip-
My suggestions are:
1. Remove Battle hardened. Lucian was so strong that there was no real midgame (my Immortal game only lasted so long because I had to research Optics to attack the other continent. I already had killed all civs on my continent after about 100 turns) You save a lot of time by getting those missing xp for an upgrade, you virtually start with Shock I and thus don't even big efforts to kill the first city. Especially Heroic Strength makes Lucian invincible. Instead of this promotion I would make him an upgradable hero analogue to the upgrade mechanic of his civ. This way you strengthen the mid and end game and not the early game that is already very strong in the main game.
Hmm... An upgradeable hero WOULD be useful, especially seeing as most never get to the real Doviello Hero. Battle-Hardened is mostly there to jumpstart your troops, but I agree, I think it might be too much.
2. Change mark of the wolf. In combination with Lucian it is too strong. Lucian does not lose many hitpoints because of this promotion and he reaches 99% very quickly. Instead of 2 garantued first strikes the promotion should either grant 2 first strike chances or 1 first strike but 2 first strikes are definitely too much.
I'll play with it some more... You're right, Mark of the Wolf might be too strong for such an early one.
3. Give Mahala Industrious instead of Financial. Financial is incredibly boring and has no synergies with any mechanic of the Doviello. Industrious has a lot of Synergies with the Doviello namely the Dens. I always thought about ways to use the mechanic effectively and Industrious would let you build the Dens very quickly
I like her as Financial..... Think Warkirby explained it perfectly.
4. Introduce some new promotions for animals. Animals can only use Combat V, Guerilla I and Woodsman I. After that you have to use that promotion that does nothing but regenerating your unit.
Already planning on it.
5. Not an issue for your modmod but for FF in general. Give the AI the XP boni they get in FFH. Fighting against unpromoted warriors makes your starting attacks too easy. Also the AI research patterns have to be improved. They need archery or Bronze Working to defend themselves. At least around turn 110 (turn 180 in my Immortal game) the AI should have more than warriors (and adepts for Kahd)
This I think the FF team is working on, actually.
Exactly. Charadon and the Baron are vicious, basing their entire economy on warfare...... Mahala actually has the ability to consolidate her holdings.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
haha Thank you, I agree. Was a pain to figure out the getCombatOdds(caster, pUnit) function.
I did not say financial is weak. It is overpowered, right, and thus I avoid playing financial leaders and I don't select it if I play an adaptive leader. I just think it is preferable to have traits that synergize with the civilization you play (like Industrious and the Dens) instead of a trait that is as good for the Doviello as it would be for any civilization. You can research for some time on 0% to get more money to upgrade, but Raiders is much more effective for getting money. Mostly Financial is just a random research booster. I played Mahala several times in Vanilla FFH and while she surely is not so strongly dependant on war as Charadon, war is still the way to go. The money you gain from pillaging is by far enough to upgrade all your slaves and outside of war the upgrade mechanic will not trigger very often.
Edit: Sorry. Did not see your post. I edited some parts afterwards.
Edit: Sorry. Did not see your post. I edited some parts afterwards.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Actually, I think it's BETTER for the Doviello, as their slaves can be upgraded to combat units wherever they're captured. Having more money works perfectly with that... It just goes with the traditional army rather than the animals.
Milaga
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Messages
- 470
So I finally got a good game started with Doviello+ last night. I read somewhere (and I'm unable to find the post again unfortunately) of a strategy/exploit using the duel system.
After all my initial scouts fell to an absurd number of gargoyle lair results, I already had a few workers improving the lands. I started endlessly producing scouts. I could almost get one a turn. As soon as the second scout was produced I dueled them. This meant I was increasing the xp of my scout by about 50% per turn. I stopped for a little bit to build an herbalist since this helped me recover from draws much quicker. I managed to get him to level 20 before I sent him to get Brigit.
Once I had Brigit I used her to duel and train my melee units. Since she has no problem repeatedly dying, this was basically giving 52xp a turn to my units with minimal risk. Of course, to ensure that my old units won the duel, I promoted them immediately. Eventually Brigit had 100xp but no promotions.
By turn 175 (standard speed) I rolled over the score leader, Thessa. I was Duin Halfmorn, so my invading force was three bronze weapon Sons of Asena who, with mobility and the Mark of the Wolf, could move three squares over any terrain per turn and had about 1000xp between them. They had march and cannibalize and I managed to demolish the elves before I finished teching for blitz.
A few suggestions on duelling:
* There should be a cap to the amount of experience that can be gained from duelling. Perhaps units shouldn't gain any experience past 100 for duelling. At first I thought the shared xp bonus should be capped too, but I don't think that's the problem. Once I started building a bunch of units the bonus xp quickly dropped.
* Immortal units shouldn't be able to duel.
* Units with pending promotions shouldn't be able to duel.
I didn't pay too much attention to the animals. Once I started the conquering I was popping a lot of wolves. I'm not sure what the conditions are for producing wolves or packs, or when their strength increases. By the time I declared myself the winner I did have a S6 wolfpack, although I could swear it lost some of the empower promotions I had given it.
Oh yeah, I thought Doviello didn't need buildings to produce units. Did you change this? I needed a hunting lodge to make a hunter. Hmm, maybe it was always like this. Been a while since I actually played the Doviello.
After all my initial scouts fell to an absurd number of gargoyle lair results, I already had a few workers improving the lands. I started endlessly producing scouts. I could almost get one a turn. As soon as the second scout was produced I dueled them. This meant I was increasing the xp of my scout by about 50% per turn. I stopped for a little bit to build an herbalist since this helped me recover from draws much quicker. I managed to get him to level 20 before I sent him to get Brigit.
Once I had Brigit I used her to duel and train my melee units. Since she has no problem repeatedly dying, this was basically giving 52xp a turn to my units with minimal risk. Of course, to ensure that my old units won the duel, I promoted them immediately. Eventually Brigit had 100xp but no promotions.
By turn 175 (standard speed) I rolled over the score leader, Thessa. I was Duin Halfmorn, so my invading force was three bronze weapon Sons of Asena who, with mobility and the Mark of the Wolf, could move three squares over any terrain per turn and had about 1000xp between them. They had march and cannibalize and I managed to demolish the elves before I finished teching for blitz.
A few suggestions on duelling:
* There should be a cap to the amount of experience that can be gained from duelling. Perhaps units shouldn't gain any experience past 100 for duelling. At first I thought the shared xp bonus should be capped too, but I don't think that's the problem. Once I started building a bunch of units the bonus xp quickly dropped.
* Immortal units shouldn't be able to duel.
* Units with pending promotions shouldn't be able to duel.
I didn't pay too much attention to the animals. Once I started the conquering I was popping a lot of wolves. I'm not sure what the conditions are for producing wolves or packs, or when their strength increases. By the time I declared myself the winner I did have a S6 wolfpack, although I could swear it lost some of the empower promotions I had given it.
Oh yeah, I thought Doviello didn't need buildings to produce units. Did you change this? I needed a hunting lodge to make a hunter. Hmm, maybe it was always like this. Been a while since I actually played the Doviello.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I've come to the same general conclusion about the duel system. I love it, but it's too strong without a cap. I've got two basic ideas..... Greatly reduce the xp from dueling, which I'd rather not do, or place a hard cap on it.
Immortals I'm fine with, though I might put in a check that permanently kills them...
I have no idea how to check for pending promotions.
I'll try and figure that one out though.All animals require their dens (The palace doubles as wolf den). Beyond that, all that matters is the city population, and your religion/civic. A smaller city pop will allow you to spawn more animals. And wolfpacks will lose their empower promotions once they hit empower 5, but gain an extra strength point. Adding more wolves will begin adding empower promotions again.
They don't need buildings for melee units, but other lines still do. I didn't touch that one.
I agree with this. the current leaderhead art is pretty ridiculous. Way too skimpy outfit for a warrior race of ice born raiders. No offense if the artist plays FFH2 but she looks more like a vegas showgirl than a packleader. She isn't even that tough looking.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I actually agree also. I just prefer it over the original art, and can't find anything better.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I don't care for the mohawk, but aside from that it's pretty good. Could you post a link to the artist's page, rather than the image?
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