Doviello+

[Breez]

That would weaken them quite a bit, but might balance being able to steal weapons....

Exactly. Weakens them, but only slightly as opposed to weakening them quite a bit by removing the ability to make metal weapons altogether.

And yes meant that as a count balance to being able to capture weapons. (Could they also "capture" the enhanced blade promo?)

That's out of context. The first quote is from the 'Current Changelog' section, while the second is from the 'Future Changes' section. Only says Done next to it so I can keep track of what's left to do before releasing a new version.

Understand, just slightly confusing is all.

 

[Valkrionn]

You could basically make these related. The savaged food = no maintenance. There fore avoiding worrying about cities and how the food get there.

Either make it simply permanent, a simple solution (basically just justification for no maintenance). Or make a promotion that auto casts after combat giving the unit no Maintenance got X number of turns.

I think I like the idea of them living off their findings more than shipping it home.

That was actually the first thing I thought when I read 'Live off the Land'. I'd make it a promotion acquired after successful combat, with a duration of 5? turns. So long as you wage war, your army can look after itself.

 

[Valkrionn]

That would weaken them quite a bit, but might balance being able to steal weapons....[\quote]

Exactly. Weakens them, but only slightly as opposed to weakening them quite a bit by removing the ability to make metal weapons altogether.

And yes meant that as a count balance to being able to capture weapons. (Could they also "capture" the enhanced blade promo?)



Understand, just slightly confusing is all.

I'll seperate them into their own posts. Reserved three of them for a reason, after all.

 

[Breez]

Ideas for Consideration:

• Grant lairs increased yields, remove/nerf regular improvements.

• 
  
  With the ability to make lairs, wouldn't this encourage them to make as many close to the city as possible?
  
  I guess depending on the minimum range in between them it might not be too bad. I guess I just feel this should not be done to make the lairs be further from town, in the wilderness more. Sure they COULD build them closer but at the cost of not upgrading that square.
  
  

  3. Doviello gain 1 on Tundra, and 1 on Ice.

  
  I fully admit I may be missing something here... isn't 1 food on ice actually worse than no food at all? Wouldn't that make the AI chose to try and work it, wasting a pop point trying to gather less food than it needs to survive who would be better off as a specialist?
  
  Or does having 1 food open the spot up to worker improvements allowing them to get better?

 

[Valkrionn]

With the ability to make lairs, wouldn't this encourage them to make as many close to the city as possible?

I guess depending on the minimum range in between them it might not be too bad. I guess I just feel this should not be done to make the lairs be further from town, in the wilderness more. Sure they COULD build them closer but at the cost of not upgrading that square.

That's why I'm not sure about it. I like the idea, but it may allow them to create a huge army of animals....

I fully admit I may be missing something here... isn't 1 food on ice actually worse than no food at all? Wouldn't that make the AI chose to try and work it, wasting a pop point trying to gather less food than it needs to survive who would be better off as a specialist?

Or does having 1 food open the spot up to worker improvements allowing them to get better?

As far as I'm aware, you cannot farm a plot unless it has at least 1, so I added the one for them to be able to farm ice. It's still a horrible terrain for them, but not quite AS horrible.

 

[xienwolf]

MrUnderhill: You wouldn't really need for Lucian to have Hero with how you have that coded, since baseStr is added to the XP count, every unit will automatically contribute to the pool.


25Hour: I don't think it would be bad micro really. You would have your frontline troops building up some serious food stocks, then they capture a city and you quell the resistance with a quick culture infusion via Disciple, and then proceed to dump all of the food from yourinvading horde into the city. Now you have a nice freshly captured and overfed city (pretty sure it will still only grow 1 citizen per turn, so instead of the NORMAL result of a captured city shrinking 1 point per turn because all the workable tiles belong to your enemy, you would have a captured city GROWING 1 per turn because they are busy eating their failed defenders )

 

[Valkrionn]

New version up.

Current Changelog:

1. 'Feral' trait added.
   • Grants peace with the Animal civilization.
   • -20% rate
2. Feral is now the Doviello CivTrait.
3. Charadon becomes Aggressive/Warlord, loses Barbarian.
   • Warlord Trait from Fall Flat- doubles the production speed of all training buildings, and increases experience gained from combat for Melee, Recon, and Archery units.
4. Mahala becomes Charismatic/Raiders, loses Ingenuity.
5. Mahala got a makeover. (Stolen from Orbis. )
6. Doviello gain 1 on Tundra, and 1 on Ice.
   • Brings Tundra up to par with Plains.
   • Ice becomes farmable. Grassland is still superior, and will stay that way.
7. Animal dens convert to Doviello control when inside Doviello borders.
8. Doviello gain the ability to build animal dens.
   • Wolf Den - Available at game start. Grassland/Plains/Tundra. Any tile with Forest. Flatland only.
   • Lion Den - Mining. Grassland/Plains. Flatland only.
   • Bear Den - Smelting. Plains/Tundra. Any tile with Forest. Flatland only.
   • Griffon Weyr - Animal Handling. Any hill tile.
   • Mammoth Den - Horseback Riding. Tundra/Ice. Flatland only.

 

[Droon]

Main reason for the lions and other animals is filler. I want enough that you can have some variety, and enough to reward each tech path.

If it's variety that you want I suggest keeping the den types at a minimum, perhaps wolf, sabretooth, mammoth, bear. Lion and griffon has nothing to do in there imo. Then focus on making the animals that they produce more interesting. As of now I usual send all captured animals back to a city and cage them (crual but true), or if I already have the cage I wait until I have a big stack and then send that of to do some dmg. Instead it would be better to develope new promotions/effects to give the animals.

Wolfs
Rabies: +2 str, spread to units in stack 10% chance, -10 Health recovery, 5% chance of lossing unit. Can be cured with cure decease.
Howl: fear 30% wear off
Territory: 20% str in homeland
Feed: Food resource (pig, sheep, horse, cow, deer) Gain 30% str, 10% Health recovery, 30% wear off. Doesn't remove the resource.
Tracking: +1 mov to hunt down a unit, 20% wear off. Triggered if unit flees from combat?

 

[WarKirby]

I'd like to second the idea of having the doviello live off their findings, rather than carrying it home.

An idea. A promotion

Supplies
-------------

• Unit costs no maintenance
• unit heals x% faster in neutral/enemy territory ( the same speed as at home, or close to)
• Promotion wears off in 5 turns

This would represent the unit carrying various scavenged foods and such.
The promotion duration would be reset back to 5 whenever one of the following occurs

1. The unit defeats a living enemy in combat (takes their food)
2. The unit pillages an improvement

Essentially, as long as your army keeps killing stuff, it wouldn't cost maintenance.



A seperate idea, quite small. I'd like doviello to gain some food yield from the Fur resource. is this possible?
In the tundra areas where they start, fur is one of the most common resources. Those little beaver things leaping around. I think it's pretty logical that a feral people like Doviello would happily munch on them. Think along the lines of eskimos, who use every part of things they hunt. eating the meat, wearing the fur, etc.

Maybe just +2 food (to the local city) from a tile containing a fur resource. Not as tasty as deer, but better than starvation.

 

[Vehem]

A seperate idea, quite small. I'd like doviello to gain some food yield from the Fur resource. is this possible?
In the tundra areas where they start, fur is one of the most common resources. Those little beaver things leaping around. I think it's pretty logical that a feral people like Doviello would happily munch on them. Think along the lines of eskimos, who use every part of things they hunt. eating the meat, wearing the fur, etc.

Maybe just +2 food (to the local city) from a tile containing a fur resource. Not as tasty as deer, but better than starvation.

Almost - but I'm actually going to just give them a +1 food from camps instead. Given that they are better-than-average hunters, that means that any camp-resource (Deer, Fur, Ivory) will provide them some food. The first two fit well and it's not too hard to imagine the Doviello munching on an elephant burger if they were to meet one.

 

[MrUnderhill]

MrUnderhill: You wouldn't really need for Lucian to have Hero with how you have that coded, since baseStr is added to the XP count, every unit will automatically contribute to the pool.

That's true, but I wanted to give Lucian a boost in importance, as well. In vanilla FFH he pretty much becomes a throwaway unit after you pick up Axemen (and maybe even before that). Base strength doesn't count as much towards inheritance as raw XP, so you pretty much need high-XP units to get an appreciable bonus (though I may want to change that eventually). If Lucian has Hero and survives until XP100 he can fuel a wave of early units with Combat 3 or higher, giving the Doviello a powerful edge in the early game and a reason not to suicide Lucian at the first opportunity.

 

[Vehem]

That's true, but I wanted to give Lucian a boost in importance, as well. In vanilla FFH he pretty much becomes a throwaway unit after you pick up Axemen (and maybe even before that). Base strength doesn't count as much towards inheritance as raw XP, so you pretty much need high-XP units to get an appreciable bonus (though I may want to change that eventually). If Lucian has Hero and survives until XP100 he can fuel a wave of early units with Combat 3 or higher, giving the Doviello a powerful edge in the early game and a reason not to suicide Lucian at the first opportunity.

Personally I'd be more concerned about what he does before 100XP. The main reason the Dovellio didn't get a hero axeman on Turn 1 was that it is *very* powerful and not just for boosting XP.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Again, true, but even with the hero promotion, Lucian is weaker than Orthus, and Orthus doesn't have a capital to guard.

 

[civ_king]

[*]Animal dens convert to Doviello control when inside Doviello borders.
[*]Doviello gain the ability to build animal dens.

• Wolf Den - Available at game start. Grassland/Plains/Tundra. Any tile with Forest. Flatland only.
• Lion Den - Mining. Grassland/Plains. Flatland only.
• Bear Den - Smelting. Plains/Tundra. Any tile with Forest. Flatland only.
• Griffon Weyr - Animal Handling. Any hill tile.
• Mammoth Den - Horseback Riding. Tundra/Ice. Flatland only.

[/LIST]

Griffons before bears? :suicide::suicide::suicide:

 

[HadesScorn]

Suggestion for dens - Grab some of the coding for Pirate Lairs by making them have a minimum distance in-between. Grant them different bonuses so the player/AI has incentive to build different types, ensuring a varied supply of animals. Make them only able to spawn animals when inside a city's BFC so they don't litter the landscape.

Also, blackjack...and hookers!

EDIT: Suggestion for teching:

Move Lion Den to "Animal Handling" and have it have a higher cost/time to build than a Wolf Den.

Move Bear Den to Mining + Animal Handling. Bears need a cave, they don't need armor [unless we're in The Golden Compass...awesome!]. Have a *very slow* build time/high cost/low spawn rate. Bear Den is potentially the most broken of these as they will allow you to give all of your cities "The Dancing Bear" without engaging in combat. Also, a base 5 creature spawning [iisc] for free? Everywhere? A little overkill.

Mammoth Den seems alright. However, if their strength is similar to Ice's? Push back the teching or limit the spawning. IIRC, Ice had, what, 18 strength mammoths?

Griffon Weyr moved to "Hunting". While Griffons don't have the strength of Bears, they do have the ability to cross the ocean en masse early game before anyone has the ability to invade islands or continents.

I'd like to see a max cap on the numbers of animals that can be spawned via this method. Otherwise, looking at some major exponential growth.

 

[civ_king]

mammoths should be similar to elephants except give +1 extra btw (representing the fact that they know how to eek every last bit out of it)

 

[Vehem]

Griffons before bears? :suicide::suicide::suicide:

Griffon Weyr moved to "Hunting". While Griffons don't have the strength of Bears, they do have the ability to cross the ocean en masse early game before anyone has the ability to invade islands or continents.

Handling, not Husbandry. It's the Ranger-level tech.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I so love that you are doing this.


Random ideas:

1. Bear cavalry would be hilarious
2. Mammoth riders have to happen.
3. Sabretooths as a variant of the Tiger unitclass would be sweet.
4. Perhaps yeti or sasquatch as a variant of the Gorilla unitclass?
5. #3&#4 would add to animal variety in cold terrain, which right now is a bear spamfest. Also makes finishing the Grand Menagerie doable.
6. Dire Wolves would be sweet.
7. Frost Giants as a northern barbarian? We have the art from Wilboman.
8. Perhaps a line of promotions that the Doviello can gain from sacrificing an animal? Eat a lion, gain courage. Eat a Bear, get strong. Etc....
9. Cannibalism might be any easy fix to represent their nutritional flexibility without requiring any additional work on your part. Just add it to the Feral trait as a free promotion.

 

[25Hour]

Suggestion for dens - Grab some of the coding for Pirate Lairs by making them have a minimum distance in-between. Grant them different bonuses so the player/AI has incentive to build different types, ensuring a varied supply of animals. Make them only able to spawn animals when inside a city's BFC so they don't litter the landscape.

Hey, what about making these animal dens simply be camp upgrades, using much the same mechanism as cottages? That way you could guard against spamming while still having an appreciable number of respawning animals. These camp-upgrades could also be "tiered" so that the better the technology you have, the better animals you get.

 

[Breez]

That's why I'm not sure about it. I like the idea, but it may allow them to create a huge army of animals....

Also a concern I had.

Ways to limit ... spawn rate? If we look at jotar (giants I can't spell) 3% per city you can get a LOT that way...

Could start with a .5% chance to spawn something each turn. Would require a LOT of lairs to get too many animals.

Also sine you are thinking of sacrificing a warrior (would carry over to axemen etc when warriors became obsolete?) you are tlaking a spell for creation. Can't you chose a minimum distance requirement? Say no close than 10 square to the closest Lair? After all animals need room to hunt...

Would be hard to make SO many that a .5% spawn rate would make a huge difference. Add that to the fact that animals are weak to recon which your enemy can use to capture your animals and use them against you, wouldn't be too bad.

On a sort of related note... should the Carnival work the same way for them? Seems they would have pretty easy access to many of the needed animals, making for some easy culture. Not arguing either way, just something to keep in mind.