Dumb and Stupid Quotes Thread: Idiotic Source and Context are Key.

I don't agree that you shouldn't care about biographical stuff, let alone when you have the author's own largish diary :)

Just a note here, I wasn't saying it prescriptively. I just don't personally care. I have a very material-centric attachment to most media. It's not really even death of the author, it's more... I just don't care. I barely learn anything about artists save their publication/release/whatever history so I can orient myself in that. Sometimes I do attach, but even then it's very particular and rare. Bonnie "Prince" Billy comes to mind as to someone I like the personhood of when engaging with material. I think it's a useful mode to best engage with some media, of which Kafka isn't part of. I would say, though, that his personal story is relatively agnostic as to the value of his work, since it works on its own. Some artists exist where the personal story is integral to enjoyment (something I often find very boring, I can't think of a single example where I'd attach to something like that. Not even mr. Bonnie, since the material can be enjoyed regardless of his background. I'm talking stuff that depends on the personal story. Frida Kahlo for example I have no interest in, and most enjoyment of it seems to be framed biographically). Like, the diary you mention. You basically just say there's a big diary. Sure. It exists. I really don't care.

Sometimes it's cool factoids. It's fun to take the same walks as Kierkegaard when I'm such a mess myself. It's kind of curious. But no more than a factoid. It doesn't matter in regards to my enjoyment of him.

Again, just my way of engaging with material. It's not prescriptive.
 
Certainly you can not care and still like the work. It just won't help with forming a not personally-valuable-only view as to what the story is about - particularly if you are inclined to think it has no meaning :) Reading the author's own notes, provided they are worth something (and if you liked the story, chances are they are somewhat useful too), can diminish somewhat (not entirely) the degree of our projection; at least then you factor also our projection of the notes...
An example of how knowing some stuff about the author (particularly from the author himself/herself) can help with the work, is elegantly presented in a short story by Borges, about a painter. The painter wished to paint something entirely unrelated with himself; in fact his plan was to paint a massive landscape. Near the end of the painting he looks from a distance at the picture and realizes its outline is the same as the one of his face.
 
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Certainly you can not care and still like the work. It just won't help with forming a not personally-valuable-only view as to what the story is about - particularly if you are inclined to think it has no meaning :) Reading the author's own notes, provided they are worth something (and if you liked the story, chances are they are somewhat useful too), can diminish somewhat (not entirely) the degree of our projection; at least then you factor also our projection of the notes...
An example of how knowing some stuff about the author (particularly from the author himself/herself) can help with the work, is elegantly presented in a short story by Borges, about a painter. The painter wished to paint something entirely unrelated with himself; in fact his plan was to paint a massive landscape. Near the end of the painting he looks from a distance at the picture and realizes its outline is the same as the one of his face.
I don't think you understand what I mean by the story being pointless. Metamorphosis is about inaction, debilitation and estrangedness. It also, naturally, relates to depression. All of this is connected with a sensation of pointlessness. The story is pure degeneration from being into nothing. This is a waste, it's pointless in that way. The pointlessness is the point.

I feel I've hit a nerve, honestly, and you're reading past what I'm saying. I know you're a big fan of Kafka, his persona included, but it's really not necessary to read it biographically to see the story as complex. Infact a strict reading going by some diary can really strip the story of value. Good literature is good usually because it reflects more than one thing, and can be experienced in different ways. This is why people re-read.

So. Biography. I don't care what Kafka thinks, since I'm not interested in his ideas, I'm interested in his texts. If they contain his ideas, they do, and if they don't, I don't need to read a biography to get something out of it. Not for a story like Metamorphosis. The story sufficiently fulfils a number of different functions and emotions, partly because of the absurdity of the situation presented, it has a lot of different imprints as to, like, void of modern work value, simply getting ill and losing value, becoming mentally ill or depressed, and then being met with a conservative family that tries to understand but is inherently toxic to the victimized beetle. It can be read through the structures of both Freud, Schopenhauer and Deleuze. Channeling it strictly through a biographical reading of whatever Kafka felt about it robs it a bit of its facets, imo. But to me it's interesting because the main character is literally made unbearable to live with and robbed of function in an environment where he had work use value, then becoming nothing if not a drain on life.

The Borges metaphor is only interesting as a perspective if the story's good. I still, honestly, don't care.

I deal a lot in antiexpressive music, for the record. I welcome biographical readings, but I very much loathe to give them priority and/or authority. I've read plenty of defenses of biographic readings, and I like them, but insisting that you're losing out when you're not doing it is bollocks, particularly when musing over a short story as an argument. :p

Like, people can do their biographical readings, or they can opt out. Both are legitimate. I prefer the latter.
 
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Hey, I am not battling you. Besides, a metapoint of a story is always to attempt to be enjoyed by the reader. Arguably that is more important than any elaborate analysis - moreso due to the nature of literary analysis, which can't be as impersonal or even stable as a math proof.

I certainly don't think I know with certainty what Kafka meant with stuff; I do know that past some point you can't avoid projections regardless of what you do. As usual, however, there are things which can more logically be derived, despite the inherent to literature aforementioned lack of a math-like discipline.

You didn't strike a nerve; it would be pretty miserable (and ridiculous) to tie my worth to being the absolute authority on some other author! Whenever I run seminars on Kafka, the projection-aspect came up routinely, and I stressed the inherent problems with a pure or correct analysis.
 
Hey, I am not battling you. Besides, a metapoint of a story is always to attempt to be enjoyed by the reader. Arguably that is more important than any elaborate analysis - moreso due to the nature of literary analysis, which can't be as impersonal or even stable as a math proof.

I certainly don't think I know with certainty what Kafka meant with stuff; I do know that past some point you can't avoid projections regardless of what you do. As usual, however, there are things which can more logically be derived, despite the inherent to literature aforementioned lack of a math-like discipline.

You didn't strike a nerve; it would be pretty miserable (and ridiculous) to tie my worth to being the absolute authority on some other author! Whenever I run seminars on Kafka, the projection-aspect came up routinely, and I stressed the inherent problems with a pure or correct analysis.

That makes sense! I'm quite tired, so I probably misread myself.

You know about Junji Ito? I'd suggest Glyceride. It's a comic, short read. It's not the same as Metamorphosis, but it has some similarities. I use stories like Metamorphosis - and Glyceride - in my classes to showcase how something can work as a story in itself, even if being based on absurd logic, regardless of metaphor. It has a similar progression as to an increasingly interruption of the dark and absurd in everyday life. Not Kafkaesque IMO, but it's more the strands of a premise just overwhelming the world through internal logic, and still having real pacing - like Metamorphosis.
 
The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States.

PUBLIUS - The Federalist Papers, Number 68
 
What's that genre?
more a quality of a few genres than a genre. long post because this is crack to me.

thing is, i could hand you a piece, and often people are like "well i feel expression in this, what's happening?" thing is that we just attribute a lot of expression to music, so it's hard to detach what music materially is from the expression that's experienced.

so let's take a step back, and go through this:

in a sense, all human activity can be seen as expressive, art included. but antiexpressive or nonexpressive material is stuff that tries to:
- be just material, without human interference (even if a person is a vehicle of it happening; a piano player plays the music, but plays it as close to sound as possible)
- not be an imprint of what the artist is feeling
- in extension, not convey the artist's emotions to the recipient
- (sometimes) not convey any emotions whatsoever; (sometimes) still evoking an emotional response in the recipient

how this is "solved" depends on the antiexpressive genre. so, ok. if two exact same sounds exist in two different genres, they are experienced differently because of the genre framing. art is socially understood (being socially understood is valid). so different antiexpressive genres can sound completely different, as the framing of the material changes our understanding of the material. this does not mean antiexpressive art is just intellectual embellishment, by the way. what we understand as expression is just as socially understood. in the end, the material is still just the material. soundwaves, dead trees with splodges on them, plasters of paint.

like, whether we even read expression into a note or not depends on genre framing. infact, reading expression into a material requires a presupposition that always ignores an innumerable count of qualities that other genres would have seen as the expressive element. my go-to examples are britney spears and beethoven. britney has had very little control of the composition of the material, and is the performer, yet we still (primarily) listen to "her". beethoven is a skeleton somewhere, other people play his music, yet we still (primarily) listen to "him". as such, whose expression we listen to depends on the genre framing, pop (performer) and classical (composer). this is a very gross simplification as both pop and classical are complex things, but i'm talking a distinction of the expression that's the most important, the expression that's peripheral, and the expression that's ignored. in britney's case, nobody cares about the stage drummer. they're just a vehicle for the material process. again, this smells of what antiexpressive genres are trying to experiment with. we can all play as if we're that drummer, and the music can still be good. expression is only experienced because of genre framing.

anyways, so what can antiexpressive music concretely sound like? for the easiest example of this, the american minimalist movement. mostly because it's so nice to listen to for most people. so i'll talk about minimalism.

-

minimalism was originally a deragoratory exonym which has since been picked up internally to reflect the concrete practices and techniques the minimalists did. it's just a short summary of a bunch of different ideas, some of which can be quite complicated.

minimalism here does not mean simple per se, like our vernacular idea of minimalism does. stuff like "minimalist internal decoration" as we use it not only conveys simplicity of shapes, but also kind of using as little as possible in volume. so a room with a simple chair and a simple table is minimalist. this stuff is what people often think about minimalism, which is not what minimalist art is, lol. minimalist music can actually often be quite complicated (and loud!), with a lot of elements interweaving. so it's not just about keeping the elements as few as possible (although some works work like this). it's about reducing expression.

minimalist music was largely a response to contemporary composition. at the time, western composition was very tonally complicated, each piece internally varied largely in tempo and structure. it was a continuation of a lot of the practices in expressionism and late romanticism. western composition was all about trying to explore different ways that the composer could express themselves.

even outside high composition, there's expression we understand in a lot of musical practices (ideas that still reign today). very shortly put, musical expression is the difference between what the notes say and what you do. there's an idea of the musical piece as an object, an ideal, and then there's the personal touch that differs from that ideal. when expression is done right, you can hear the human difference (the human's feelings "coloring" the musical piece), but it's not so different as to be "wrong", whether in mistakes or differing too much from the idea of the musical piece as an object. jazz standards generally follow this principle, being a core melody, and then the interpretation of the melody is the expressive quality and foundational to the genre.

so the minimalists did the following:
- make the tonality as nonexpressive as possible: keep melodies and harmonies consonant and simple. this removed the possibility of using tonality to express emotion.
- make the structure as nonexpressive as possible: no need to do departures and variations of what's happening, keep the musical piece repetetive. this removed the larger narrative of a piece.
- make the performance as nonexpressive as possible: notes should be played strictly, as if the human playing was a machine. this removed the element of expression felt in the difference from musical sheet to the material sound.

they did this while still trying to have it sound interesting and beautiful. so they removed all of these elements that made music interesting, but still needed variance. how did they accomplish this?
- instead of exploring tonality, explore how the material flows. a note's material sound, even if played "like a machine" has a lot of color to it. volume, airiness. at a micro level, they did a lot of work with rhythm, looking at how notes interacted as a sequence of beats rather thant trying to tell the listener where the emotions were going. steady rhythm, simple stuff, but interlocking in ways that kept your attention.
- instead of going through a bunch of different sections, explore the same section over and over again, varying slowly without doing a fundamental detour. how this is accomplished is complicated, but the most important work the minimalists did in my opinion was to use a lot of repetition, but with rules that change the repeated element each time.
- instead of expressively varying from the material, look into what materials you're using. minimalists often used instruments that were the least possible to differ when playing. they really, really liked pitched percussion instruments, such as the marimba. choir happened too, but they generally weren't given lyrics, only syllables, sounding more like instruments than song if that makes sense.

minimalism is important not just because the music is good, but because it's secretly infiltrated a lot of modern music. the ways minimalists compose is stunningly similar to most composing done on the computer (digital audio workstations use grids, not musical notation; the minimalists used grids!; and it has naturally lead to a lot of pop, hip hop, etc using a lot of the same techniques). minimalism is everywhere in electronic music. it's also present in a lot of big hollywood music scores - the Interstellar soundtrack is basically minimalism. although a lot of those current practices are done for the sake of expression; and then again, i'd return the point about genre framing.

anyhow, rant over. now to share some minimalism. i like these, they're easy to listen to for most people. notice how much they repeat while still being complicated.





(yes it's long. just put it on.)

i have long notes on how all of them interlock with minimalism and nonexpression, but i've gone waaay to long here.
 
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Crazy what you can learn on page 71 of a stupid quotes thread on CFC, that's part of what keeps me coming back despite my ambivalence about the pseudo-sociality of the internet .

Listening now, Brian Eno one feels very evocative. I like electronic music in general because it lets you paint your own story so to speak. As opposed to some pop love song or anything lyrical in general where you're pretty much instructed how to feel (not to say I don't enjoy/appreciate lyrics)
 
more a quality of a few genres than a genre. long post because this is crack to me.
Oh hell yeah at this moment I knew, strap in :cool:
 
That is a fantastic post.

You've done more to explain to me why I am bored to tears by some music more than I would have been able to capture myself. It's an insight worthy of value!

Edit: in that it's freeing. I can't like everything that's good, so at least it's nice to know what it is, right? Now to sort out 'house.' Oof.
 
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aw shucks, you guys. <3

like i just can't help do the minimalist rant, so it's nice it's appreciated
Crazy what you can learn on page 71 of a stupid quotes thread on CFC, that's part of what keeps me coming back despite my ambivalence about the pseudo-sociality of the internet .

Listening now, Brian Eno one feels very evocative. I like electronic music in general because it lets you paint your own story so to speak. As opposed to some pop love song or anything lyrical in general where you're pretty much instructed how to feel (not to say I don't enjoy/appreciate lyrics)
yea a lot of "nonexpressive" stuff serves this function, trying to be pure material, they often emphasize the recipient's engagement with it. i also prefer instrumentals, but it's moreso because of the mainstream function of most vocals (i personally like vocals more down in the mix, as another instrument, instead of a central role to be supported by everything else). i also barely pay attention to lyrics until i've listened to something like thirty times. shoegaze and post-rock - and minimalism - often use voices the way i prefer. not that i don't listen to other things. i love rihanna. :p
 
Crazy what you can learn on page 71 of a stupid quotes thread on CFC, that's part of what keeps me coming back despite my ambivalence about the pseudo-sociality of the internet .

Listening now, Brian Eno one feels very evocative. I like electronic music in general because it lets you paint your own story so to speak. As opposed to some pop love song or anything lyrical in general where you're pretty much instructed how to feel (not to say I don't enjoy/appreciate lyrics)
This is well put, in that this category of "nonexpressive" can lead to what is quite evocative. Dance music does this, the music strives to be evocative, the listeners express through dance. So instead of the composer dancing himself into the song, the listener dances their way from the song.
 
We’re killing the patient to tackle the tumour. Large ppl [taken to mean large numbers of people] who will die, why are we destroying economy for people who will die anyway soon.

BoJo
 
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