Dungeons and Dragons 4e on PC

Oh yeah, because you're certainly an authority on how RPG work, for sure :rolleyes:

And I like how "everything else is for RPing". Yeah, the whole ten percents that aren't just bland tables of fighting moves.

Yeah, thanks for proving my point :

"It's nothing RPG, and everything action game"

Wonder who's the one who can't read here, because that's exactly why D&D 4 is crappy, it's just a battle rule set, and not a role-playing one.
(and if you're going to make some smartass answer about how you don't need rules to roleplay, I'll refer you to the post you're supposed to answer, because this is already pointed at it here)

As a person who has played in and DM'd for numerous rulesets. I am an expert on how RPGs work. The rules shouldn't have to tell you how to RP, that is for player and DM discretion. The rules do tell you the best ways to provide experience, combat, loot, etc. The core mechanics of the game are based around going out and fighting monsters, they rest is all freeform. You don't even need to use the combat rules, but it adds strategy to the game which makes it fun to visualize on a board or grid paper. You don't need rules to tell you how to RP, it's commonsense, if you can't do it by yourself you shouldn't be RPing to begin with.
 
RP is boring, nobody really cares they just want to the loot and killing baddies anyway.

Don't forget hitting on hot elven chicks, where's the chapter on that? There isn't one!? This game sucks!

(almost made reference to that hilarious RPG about sex and NSFW stuff, lol)
"the game that must not be named"
 
In Akka's defense, there are rulesets where RP defines your character's statistics, like Fuzion.. Well I am mostly aware of Artesia Known World which works with Fuzion, where the type of actions you do in the game make you go down a certain lifepath that is more acquainted with a certain set of skills (e.g.: if you force your way into a position of power you get points in the path of "The Emperor" and that allows you to get better at skills like negociation, leadership, etc.). It seems pretty epic.

That being said, I'm sort of curious as to what exactly 4e removed that was so important to roleplaying in 2e and 3e.
 
I'm not an expert of RPG games, but are you in need of a chapter on improvisational acting or how to create a dramatic character background and personality?
The first two paragraphs contain primarily ranting. So the 4e rules focus heavily on combat, but that shouldn't be a problem if there are no rules needed for the RP.
Seriously people...
You don't NEED rules for RPing. You don't NEED them for fighting either, you know - you can just as much roleplay fighting like anything else.
If you're going to say "you don't need this", then you don't need the rulebook and you don't need 4E at all, because you can just create your own rules, or play without rules at all.

But then what's the point of defending 4E and saying it's good ?
If something is supposed to be a roleplay game, then I expect it to be a, *Captain Obvious*, ROLEPLAY ruleset, not just a battle system and "here is your roleplaying game".
If you see the point of providing a frame for fighting, why don't you see the point of providing the frame for roleplaying ? Because both are optionnal and you don't really need any of them.

As for me, if I get a roleplaying ruleset, I expect it to be about everything in a roleplaying game, and not just 90 % fighting and 10 % for the rest.
ADD2 was very interesting about this (though the rules were a mess). It was about everything in a game, very detailed about countless aspects.
The bestiary, for example, gave a LOT of data about how such creature should be played, with social structure and ecology, with entire page in small print filled with hints, informations and the like - again, you can do without, but again, if you're going to use this idiotic argument, then why use a ruleset at all ?
In comparison, 4E is barely a few lines of descriptions, some lines about how they fight and mostly a large table with fighting stat.
Besides, RP is boring, nobody really cares they just want to the loot and killing baddies anyway.
That's precisely the problem with 4E. You make a joke about it, but that's exactly the feeling that 4E rules give.
 
You know, I can't really argue with you that the amount of fluff is too small in 4e. But the rules that are in the game are so much better presented than in the previous editions that it makes it hard to go back to earlier versions for me. I'd be in a dream world with 4e style rulebooks and 2e fluff content. A lot of the fluff I insert in 4e comes from experience playing with the previous games so I don't really need the old books anymore. In a way, the fluff off any book can be used.
 
4e also provides entire RP adventures, settings and tons of books on how to make these things work with your story. The basics of the ruleset are combat oriented because they figure people don't need to be told how to play in character, nor can they, it is your character. Nothing has changed about how RPing works since AD&D, you are just mad because you hate change and hate the complexities of 4e combat. Sure combat is more well defined, but the story is what draws you, the details the DM gives about the combat, are what draws you. You can't hate on 4e because it makes it easier for the DM to build a world, nor can you hate it for stopping players from becoming OP by balancing classes. In older versions the fighter was the most useless class to be, but in 4e a fighter is just as valuable as the wizard. That is why it's the best version, THAT is what makes it the best RPing environment.
 
Roleplaying isn't hard. But when you and a buddy are playing cops and robbers, you usually get into this argument:

Cop: I shot you, you're dead!
Robber: Nuh-uh, you missed me!
Cop: I'm only 5 feet away, I totally got you!
Robber: No way! I jumped out of the way really fast!

From what I can tell, the rules are meant as a system of task success/failure and conflict resolution. Because these are the aspects that require some sort of foundation that create a balanced, universal mechanism for handling "can I do [blank]?"

Some systems handle this better than others, obviously.
 
As a person who has played in and DM'd for numerous rulesets. I am an expert on how RPGs work.
For sure.
I mean, there is just so few people who ever DM'd using different rulesets, the fact you did it certainly immediately makes you an expert ! I'm pretty sure nobody else here ever did that !
The rules shouldn't have to tell you how to RP, that is for player and DM discretion. The rules do tell you the best ways to provide experience, combat, loot, etc. The core mechanics of the game are based around going out and fighting monsters, they rest is all freeform. You don't even need to use the combat rules, but it adds strategy to the game which makes it fun to visualize on a board or grid paper. You don't need rules to tell you how to RP, it's commonsense, if you can't do it by yourself you shouldn't be RPing to begin with.
I'll refer you to the post I made just before this one : you don't need rules at all, like you said, the point of the rules being to provide a frame helping to visualize the situation and help player gauge their chances and possibilities.

So... Be it for fighting or roleplaying, you don't need rules. Be it for fighting or roleplaying, rules are means to add fun by providing a frame.
So... what exactly is the interest of a supposedly roleplaying ruleset that is actually just a battle ruleset ?
The possibility to make smartass and childish comment about how you don't need rules to chain your imagination and incredible creative process in roleplaying ?

The two interesting and separate points in an existing p'n'p RPG are the settings (the world(s) that the game use, like Dark Sun/Planescape/whatever in D&D, the cyberpunk and magical Earth in Shadowrun, etc.), expressed in the "content" books, and the take on roleplaying it gives, the direction/feeling it gives, expressed in the ruleset (it's like a book : you can write one yourself, but you buy them because you're interested in what someone else has to say). Many rulesets push toward a particular style - that's the point of rules, why would we use them if they didn't influence the game ?

4E only gives a battle system. The world content has been nearly entirely rebooted (at least the planes, which have basically been removed and replaced by a simplistic and very dry new version), and the rules are just a strict barebone to give lip service to the RP part, and the near entirety of the content is just tables of fighting moves.
So basically it's a battle system. It has no personnality in term of style, and doesn't provide any interesting frame for roleplay, nor give any interesting and quantitative informations for new DM, nor is even a good read.

Now you can claim it's a good ruleset because you don't need rules for RP - which is a dumb argument, as you don't need rules for fighting either, and you still went by buying a ruleset for it.
Me, I see something sold as a RPG that is just an uninspired and bland battle system that fits more in video game than p'n'p, and some pompous windbag that think himself an expert because he talks tough on the Internet and miss half the point of actually using a ruleset.
 
For sure.
I mean, there is just so few people who ever DM'd using different rulesets, the fact you did it certainly immediately makes you an expert ! I'm pretty sure nobody else here ever did that !

So what makes you such an expert then?
 
What makes it a bland battle system with no RPG elements? I'm looking at the Players Handbook and DM guide right now and they have opening chapters about how RPing works. The books aren't supposed to tell you how to run a story, they just provide you with ways to resolve combat or other dice checks you need. What is so wrong with it? The books only need to provide the ways to build balanced characters to use against the insane amount of monsters, and how to do checks related to any skill challenge you could possibly imagine. What more is required?
 
4e also provides entire RP adventures, settings and tons of books on how to make these things work with your story. The basics of the ruleset are combat oriented because they figure people don't need to be told how to play in character, nor can they, it is your character. Nothing has changed about how RPing works since AD&D, you are just mad because you hate change and hate the complexities of 4e combat. Sure combat is more well defined, but the story is what draws you, the details the DM gives about the combat, are what draws you. You can't hate on 4e because it makes it easier for the DM to build a world, nor can you hate it for stopping players from becoming OP by balancing classes. In older versions the fighter was the most useless class to be, but in 4e a fighter is just as valuable as the wizard. That is why it's the best version, THAT is what makes it the best RPing environment.

The cleric walks into the room, everything dies from taking 9001 damage.

In 4E you actually need teamwork, *gasp*
 
Roleplaying isn't hard. But when you and a buddy are playing cops and robbers, you usually get into this argument:

Cop: I shot you, you're dead!
Robber: Nuh-uh, you missed me!
Cop: I'm only 5 feet away, I totally got you!
Robber: No way! I jumped out of the way really fast!

From what I can tell, the rules are meant as a system of task success/failure and conflict resolution. Because these are the aspects that require some sort of foundation that create a balanced, universal mechanism for handling "can I do [blank]?"

Some systems handle this better than others, obviously.
Exactly. This is precisely why having extensive rules not limited to simply bashing/piercing/burning skulls are interesting, because it allows to frame a much larger scope of actions and situations.
Roleplaying a discussion with a merchand/the Duke/whoever is something that is certainly much more interesting if the player do it and the DM judge it, rather than if they just throws dices to make a speechcraft check and be done with it - just like describing trying a colourful action is much more lively than just making a THAC0 check.
But how do a player roleplay picking a lock ? Mounting a horse ? Climbing a chasm ? All these can be described, like how you attempt to slash an Orc, but lots of non-fighting actions can benefit from a ruleset that cater to something else than killing stuff.
Of course you can just make some simple checks, but then you can also fight with some attack vs defense check. Like fighting, non-fighting can benefit from a rich set of rules, for the exact same reason.
So what makes you such an expert then?
I'm not the one pretending I'm an expert, you know.
Though if his definition of an expert is acceptable, I'm one (wow, good to know !).

For the rest, I just use my common sense : if I buy a RPG ruleset, I want to get a RPG ruleset, not just a battle system that rely on MMO design to hold together.
 
Diplomacy checks aid your talk with a merchant/duke/whatever, but the stuff the player says is just as important. You only roll diplomacy or bluff or whatever to see your standing with the person, not to do the RPing. Athletics, nature, dungeoneering, thievery. All of these things work outside of combat. Or am I missing your point? You use checks to aid RPing, not to eliminate it. If the person fails the check, it's more realistic than him ALWAYS RPING A SUCCESS.
 
at lvl 9 in 3.5E one a player had 26 diplomacy and he kind of broke the game
 
I want a D&D 4E game that has turn based combat and team mates
 
So is this NWN 3, in effect? But sounds like it is console only.
 
I'm curious as to what you guys think of the Pathfinder ruleset, which some people call 3.75e.

I grew up playing the original boxed set D&D, so no comment.
 
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