[BTS] [Earth 1000AD] (Shadow game) Sunset invasion - invading Europe with Aztec

[MAvL]

Ok, so I had the idea of invading Europe with aztecs on this other thread : https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/earth-1000ad-aztec-invasion.643260/ (where I discuss tricks and ask for advice) and since I am not that proficient at Civ 4, I thought, why not make it a shadow game and have your intput.

The setup is simple :
Earth1000AD scenario
Aztec
Monarch difficulty (default*)
Complete Kill required

I know the map quite well (4th times I do it as Aztec, and I did it a long time ago with England) and I will exploit my knowledge of it.

Being Isolated on a huge and rich land, the logical start is REXing. Being extremely late on every reguards, the logical continuation is booming into a diplo victory, or a hard fought space race if that fails.

But I am not logical, so diplo victory (and victory at all) is a secondary objective/backup plan. Instead, I wish to launch an invasion at Europe, at least at the barbarian part of it (Dub Linn and Scandinavy), with galleys through Greenland rather than with galleons. I pulled it off by 1828 in my last run (at noble, where I was conservative and have good chance at diplo and even score victory), I'll aim at 1700 for this one.

I don't necessarilly intend to recover economically from REX, and instead intend to spam Sacrificial Altar (courthouse) and steal my way into the tech tree. So I'll don't mind stopping research and research trades when I'll have optics, and maybe currency and vassalage (along with the basics Amerindian lack at the start).

Wish me luck, and tell me how you would go about this crazy goal.

Next post is starting location, tech tree, save, etc.

*in this scenario, each civs seems to be attributed a different difficulty, as a handicap, in a way which intends to lead to the most historically accurate result : European power are chieftain, so as to make them dominant power despite their cramped start, Arabs and Byzantines are deity and monarch, so as to compensate for their good start and favor their crumbling, and so on. Aztec are Monarch so that they get stomped by colonial powers. I'll try to get that in reverse.

 

[MAvL]

Spoiler Option :

Nothing special, just getting my hands at the Forums functionalities

Spoiler Tech Tree :

The Inca lack Iron working but have Civil Service. It is extremely strong and compensate for their much crappier starting location. I won't fight hard for bureaucracy though the high upkeep combined with the Rex Strat makes it not that appealing

A conservative research order would be Wheel (road is a must) - Potery (synergize with slavery) - and sailing (for lighthouse that you can wipe, and potentially to get a foot in south america).

Sailing is less of a necessity I'll probably only go for it because it is cheap. But I will actually go Wheel - Alphabet and hope to trade it or ironworking for pottery, so as to maximize scientific cooperation. In my other games, Inca researched iron working gon his own, which is a waste.

I am even tempted to go sailing alphabet, so as to trade sailing for road, but I think it is too greedy. And I am saving time for later by building roads rather than running around

Spoiler Starting Location :

I could have taken a more informative screenshot but I start with : 2 settlers, 2 workers and 3 Jags.

There is a quite important decision to make about the capital placement. The two placements I consider are :

1. - default (the hill where the unit stack stand)
2. - coastal : 1 NE of default

Without knowing the map, my guts told me Coastal, because I love coastal cities, And because it feel bad to have 5 coastal tiles in a city without lighthouse (which already has 5 mountains). Sharing 2 coastal tiles with Chitzen Itza (barb city East) is a much lesser Evil.

Knowing the map, I am not as assertive, but still go for Coastal.

Spoiler capital spot evaluation :

Spoiler spoiler, map knowledge :

City spot are circled, each color corresponding to a city plan

• The (future) north city doesn't care.
• The NW city much prefers coastal start as it leaves it the deer for it.
• The capital itself might have a slight preference for default early on, as it exploits more special ressources. But long run coastal capital is much better. Coastal does share 2 water tiles with Chitzen Itza, but at least, it is able to exploit water tiles at all.
• City center on plain hill generates 2 more free food than regular worker, vs 1 on plain, so that's a small point for default.
• Big pro for default : 4 forest to chop rush, versus 2-3 for Coastal. Especially important if aiming at, say Great Wall.

So coastal start is a strong favorite until now. What makes me doubt is the South (Centrel America)

• It is obvious to plan under default start, one beautiful city with 2 food sources.
  
• Under coastal start, the stone is awkward to exploit. You can go with the same developpement as for default, missing the stone, which I guess is ok.
• An other option under coastal is to put two cities, one on the stone and one on the extreme end before South America. This is the option I opt for and on which I would like feedback. I always hate building my cities too close next to each other and I hate building cities on top of ressources, but I guess due to the moderate bonus it is somewhat ok to settle on top of marble and to a lesser extent of stone. As far as town proximity, shared food might actually be a pro early on, and later on I can just prioritize on the capital, the stone city does not need the shared tiles any more once developped and grown.
• The two south cities are both canal, while the single is not. Canal can be both a pro (more mobility for work boats, easier to contact Inca) and a con (letting foreign caravels roam more freely). A canal can later be built in northearn South America

Next comes the question of the second town. As I decided to put a city on the stone, I'll go for it now.

Spoiler :

It makes sense since based on my current information, I am not supposed to know of the great spot available North. I'm also working on the common ressource, it goes toward Great Wall as well as towardcontacting Inca. Center town on stone also makes the city stronger, especially early on when worker haven't had time to do their job.

Next post is Build Order and early military plans.

 

[Wrathful]

Did you consider settling the capital 2N of the starting position? If I recall correctly this gives you 3 corn and silver in the BFC.

If you want to do the Astro bulb you should avoid Civil Service and Meditation. Inca actually get screwed here because they start with CS and their capital is pretty poor (so Bureau's bonus is weak).

Techwise you have to get Wheel, Pottery, and Sailing before anything else. These techs are absolutely crucial. After that you can go Alpha > MC > Compass > Machinery > Optics and have everything you need for the Astro bulb.

Not sure how many trades you can get out of Inca. Is it worth it to spend your second settler on that stone spot just to contact him early? Maybe the Louisiana spot is better. Food, forests, green riverside.

What about barbs? How bad are they on this map? Maybe you need to hook up copper early? Jaguars get destroyed by axes...Speaking of barbs, the barb city to the east has the Chichen Itza wonder. The culture from that might get irritating later on. Maybe get iron and build swords to take it out?

If anything GP generation might be the bottleneck here. You have to get those high food spots up early and start running scientists. Astro needs 2 GS to bulb and a third GS can bulb Optics too.

Make use of the SPI trait. You start with CoL so switching between Slavery and Caste can happen often.

 

[MAvL]

Did you consider settling the capital 2N of the starting position? If I recall correctly this gives you 3 corn and silver in the BFC. [in addition to the visible deer, and less importantly, a spice]

No, and I shouldn't have overlooked this option, I already feel learnning . It is by far the strongest capital site, both early and later on.
With all the food ressources and some of the other ressources, we're looking at a 4-6 size food pump city by turn 13-20 which can produce in the 17-20H/F. Not too shaby. Maybe slower by pop rushing a worker so that improvements can catch up.

There are couple downsides from least to most important :

• Issues similar (but lesser) than coastal start (1NW) as far as settling Central America goes. No big deal.
• It settles on a forest, in an area where there aren't plenty.
• It takes away a food source from Texas (northearn corn), an otherwise very decent settling area. I guess Texas can either exploit the corn later on, or take a fish from Lousianalabama which can compensate with a few farms.
  
• Under coastal start, there is a mediocre city spot NW (in West Mexico) on arid land with deer, crab and silver mine. Without deer and Silver it becomes just bad, useless spot, almost purely coastal with only one crab, and a desertic gold mine. The mediocre spot is very juicy compared to nothing, a decent size 10 (eventually, size 3 early on) town with decent income and better than minimal production. So I guess that's my main complain.
• Further on the last point, since I start with slavery and will build granaries early on, food points are worth almost twice as much while whipping than while buildin settlers and workers the regular way. And I also have BW and forest, so I prefer to divide food sources into smaller towns (2 F source each ideally) and whippe them, rather than build a settler pump.

So I guess it boils down to two main points :

• Having an extra small city to whip versus having a strong food pump and a strong capital
  
• eploiting the deer sooner but the crab not at all.

So I think I ill decide against and will opt for the coastal start, but I'd be interested to see how the 2N start fare, I may give it a run.

Maybe the Louisiana spot is better.

If the BTS map is the same as the vanillia I'm used to, Lousiana spot is occupied by a very well placed barb town (maybe more Alabama actually), which I can take for free (about 33% to lose a jag, so worse case is still cheaper than settler).

Texas might be better than south Mexico, but the spot I have in mind needs to be border popped, and is further away from starting location. I think I can pop and chop rush a settler and somehow settle Texas by turn 15, squishing some precious early turns. And that while building a work boat, contacting Inca super early and coming back just in time to work texan fish. It's a bit of a gambit since I'll pop rush a work boat without using it immediately, but it should be ok.

Tech

I agree with CS being useless. I can see it being useful for Aztec if I could have it from trade early on, especially in the 2N start. But as hard rexing goes on, maintenance offsets the benefits of Bureau.

Meditation did not even crossed my mind, but Inca will almost surely research it at some point, sabotaging our progress.

Not sure how many trades you can get out of Inca.

Quite a lot actually. Without trying too hard, you can have Currency and CS. In my last run I try a bit hard, but not as hard as I intend for this one, and got compass and metal casting for Feudalism IIRC, and later Currency.

Ofc you can also get the useless tech from him later on, like horse riding, meditation and such.

Here, I'm tempted to go super greedy and insert alphabet before Pottery, Sailing or even both, so as to have one of them through trade. Maybe even Alpha before road. In a perfect world, it would go :

1. Alpha|nothing //Inca reasearch the Wheel in the mean time, but I don't trade Alpha
   
2. Iron Working|Wheel //I don't have to research IW
   
3. Pottery|Sailing
4. Metal Casting|Compass
5. Machinerie|Currency
6. then Optics and forget about Inca.

To make it work, it would be better if I knew AI behavior. I already know he will do IW before Alpha, hence trading IW is better. If you have any pointer on that, I'll take them. Civ 4 AI seems to know quite well what it needs techwise compared to civ 3 expect when he does not like in this scenario as Inca. But I expect its behaviour, search order and trade priorities to be very deterministic which is why they seem to make sens most of the time.

What about barbs? How bad are they on this map?

They are very weak. For now, archers and warrior weak. I intend to built Great Wall for a couple reason, Axemen, should not appear before I finish it.

Jaguars get destroyed by axes...

(Combat I) Woodsman II Jaguard is a decent Chariot ersatzt, both mobility wise and to deal with Axemen. If I got Great Wall, which should not be too hard (stone at start, and the wonder really only makes sense for me), I won't have to defend outside of wood/jungle.

In the couple past runs I have never found myself forced to use metal weapon versus barbarian, but I did had metal by the time Axemen appear, without especially rushing for it, so it should not be an issue.

I might even rush for copper into colossus (worse case, failgold is sweet).

Speaking of barbs, the barb city to the east has the Chichen Itza wonder. The culture from that might get irritating later on. Maybe get iron and build swords to take it out?

I think the culture is not greater than those of my palace. Aztec don't have sword (they have jag) but a single catapult along with 2 of the 3 initial jags, possibly promoted to cover/ combat II /pillage after taking Chicago and Alabama, should be enough to capture it. Ideally, I build a catapult then great wall and finish it before taking Chitzen Itza so as to have a great spy rather than a great prophet.

If anything GP generation might be the bottleneck here.

Definitely. I think I will do a couple wonders, GW definitely, Chitzen Itza I just have to capture it, and Colossus, but quite late so as not to slow the REX. Great Light House would be sweet to have, but I won't spend the hammer, and overseas power will and probably should spend the hammer (or the GE for what matters), so I won't count on it, but would definitely use a Great Engineer for it if I'm that lucky.

You have to get those high food spots up early and start running scientists

I guess that's a big point in favor of 2N capital.

The issue I have with food is that it conflict with cottages spam. Maybe I should forget about cottage spam (an early <=1-2 per plain town instead of spam) and go for a specialist economy?

Astro needs 2 GS to bulb and a third GS can bulb Optics too.

I will defintely beeline optics once the 3 basic techs are done. I am not sure about Astro though, I really like the idea of Colossus and late astro. In any case, I think building two galleys to try and intercept European Caravell or go encounter them through Greenland if they're very slow, is rather important because IIRC they start without music and don't reasearch it until late. So you'd better trade it for something useful rather than have Inca trade it for horseback riding, litterature or drama. It also open trade routes potentially much earlier than waiting for Astro.

In any case, I don't think I have to make the choice about Astro and calculating GS before at least 20 turns from now. Unless GWall conflicts with having GScientists, but I think it actually helps with a little luck.

Make use of the SPI trait. You start with CoL so switching between Slavery and Caste can happen often.

I've found myself border poping by building culture alone quite often in previous runs (takes 5-10 turn). Big mistake when I could do it in 2-3 turns with the help of an artist. I'll try to remember that.

 

[Wrathful]

Wait, I thought all the wonders (Great wall, GLH, etc.) were pre-built in this scenario? Is that not the case? It would certainly change things if you could get the GLH.

I am not sure about Astro though, I really like the idea of Colossus and late astro. In any case, I think building two galleys to try and intercept European Caravell or go encounter them through Greenland if they're very slow, is rather important because IIRC they start without music and don't reasearch it until late. So you'd better trade it for something useful rather than have Inca trade it for horseback riding, litterature or drama. It also open trade routes potentially much earlier than waiting for Astro.

Don't underestimate the benefits of Astro in isolated or semi-isolated starts, especially on a map like this. There are three main benefits to Astro:

• Trade routes: Since you are on your own continent, getting Astro opens up intercontinental trade routes, which are extremely lucrative. This map is also loaded with food, so AIs will have cities with huge populations (i.e. 15+).
  
• Resource Trades: If you're the first to Astro, you'll have the monopoly on Corn resource trades. You can get so many amazing trades out of this. Health (wheat and rice), happiness, and gold per turn. Some AIs like China might have 15+ gold per turn available for trade.
• Tech Trading: You can trade Astro for the entire Medieval era and most of the Renaissance I would imagine.

If the BTS map is the same as the vanillia I'm used to, Lousiana spot is occupied by a very well placed barb town (maybe more Alabama actually), which I can take for free (about 33% to lose a jag, so worse case is still cheaper than settler).

Good point. I knew about the barb city in Central America but not any others.

Quite a lot actually. Without trying too hard, you can have Currency and CS. In my last run I try a bit hard, but not as hard as I intend for this one, and got compass and metal casting for Feudalism IIRC, and later Currency.

Ofc you can also get the useless tech from him later on, like horse riding, meditation and such.

Here, I'm tempted to go super greedy and insert alphabet before Pottery, Sailing or even both, so as to have one of them through trade. Maybe even Alpha before road. In a perfect world, it would go :

1. Alpha|nothing //Inca reasearch the Wheel in the mean time, but I don't trade Alpha
   
2. Iron Working|Wheel //I don't have to research IW
   
3. Pottery|Sailing
4. Metal Casting|Compass
5. Machinerie|Currency
6. then Optics and forget about Inca.

To make it work, it would be better if I knew AI behavior. I already know he will do IW before Alpha, hence trading IW is better. If you have any pointer on that, I'll take them. Civ 4 AI seems to know quite well what it needs techwise compared to civ 3 expect when he does not like in this scenario as Inca. But I expect its behaviour, search order and trade priorities to be very deterministic which is why they seem to make sens most of the time.

There's a list of techs the AI prioritizes on this forum somewhere. I can't remember it very well. I do know that the AI does not prioritize Compass usually. Currency is a likely trade however. Keep in mind that you can wait for the Inca to get Alpha themselves and then trade MC for it. I don't know if that would work out or not (and you seem have a great deal of experience on this scenario) so it's up to you.

I think the culture is not greater than those of my palace. Aztec don't have sword (they have jag) but a single catapult along with 2 of the 3 initial jags, possibly promoted to cover/ combat II /pillage after taking Chicago and Alabama, should be enough to capture it. Ideally, I build a catapult then great wall and finish it before taking Chitzen Itza so as to have a great spy rather than a great prophet.

Ha! Completely forgot that Jaguars replace swords. Anyway, your capital will be fine, but if you settle that stone city in Central America its corn might get stolen.

The issue I have with food is that it conflict with cottages spam. Maybe I should forget about cottage spam (an early <=1-2 per plain town instead of spam) and go for a specialist economy?

The idea of a "Cottage Economy" vs a "Specialist Economy" is rather antiquated. Frankly, on this map there's no reason you can't have both. Pick a few cities with high food to spam specialists, and everything else can work cottages. Use pure commerce (generated by cottages and trade routes) to clear the Astro prereqs. Along the way, get out your Great Scientists. Avoid CS, Theology, and Meditation (as they ruin the bulb). Once you have all the tech you need, whip everything down to get an army and launch the invasion of Europe.

 

[lymond]

Many early wonders are available.except for the Mids, which is pre-built in Cairo. (Stonehenge might be prebuilt in England..did not notice) Oracle is even available from the start, but will go very fast. Hard for Aztecs to build that one. Maybe settling in place and chopping. GLH pretty much impossible to build in time.

Not sure if shines are pre-built or not. AIs do seem to pop a lot of Great Prophets early, and other great people..seems like every turn. I played a bit as the Biz the other day (fun) and captured Jerusalem in the first 3 or 4 turns. It had around a +29gpt Christian shrine in there, but no Jewish Shrine.

Great Wall very doable by settling on the stone, and it is a good wonder to have in North America just to eliminate the nuisance.

Bamassippi city would make pretty good bureau cap. Missouri city not bad for that either.

 

[MAvL]

Wait, I thought all the wonders (Great wall, GLH, etc.) were pre-built in this scenario? Is that not the case? It would certainly change things if you could get the GLH.

Some are, like Pyramids or Stonenge, many are not. It has to be a hole in the map design, because some are really abusive.

I can get you the complete list of ancient and classical Wonders still up for grabs if you want, but the ones that really matter are Oracle, GLH, GW and Colossus.

Spoiler :

• Oracle is completely broken, and the main reason I call this map flaw abusive. The most likely prognosis is France will get a renaissance tech for the cost of a Classical Wonder.
• Great Wall does not make much sense for any oversea power, who have more pressing matters, including war, meaning they won't benefit from leaving their cities unprotected. I would not call it a must for aztecs but I think it's worth it
• Great Light House should be much better than colossus because it is not rendered obselete by Astro, but it is also much more expensive. If oversea power play well, I should be beaten by a coastal asiatic nation, or by Saladin, Isabelle, Elisabeth or Ragnar once they stabilize. In practice, they take a lot of time to built it, so I might be able to chop and pop rush it in Louisiana, or to get it with GE if I am greedy (but probably bad if I need GS).
• Colossus has a really good effect and is good for any power

A Greenland outpost actually grants all the trade benefits of Astro. Corn monopoly should not be an issue early on, because my only concurrent is Inca and he plays really badly (does not settle East). Even a strong human Inca player would struggle as Inca versus Aztec in the trade race, because their starting position is so much worse.

The third point alone should make Astronomy a much better option. Being the first to Astro by a sufficient margin (so that you can trade for it's full value ; beelining it, with 3GS as the 3 first GP) should be enough to fully close the technological gap via tech trade (the economical gap being taken care with trade routes and ressource trade).

Spoiler Some calculation about Astro vs Greenland trade route :

Assuming the 3rd GS is grown in parallel to the other in a town with 2 scientists, it should take 50 turns of moderate commitement. To further quantify the cost each specialist can be seen as -2 food compared to if he worked a tile, so -4 hammer whipping, assuming there is anything interesting to pop rush. So a combined 200 scientists turns cost between 400 and 800 food/hammer ressource depending how we count, and yields 600 science, in addition to 3GS, or an additional 4000 beakers or so.
Astro initial cost turns out to be much lower than what I imagined, thanks to the insane value gained by the GSs.


OTOH, Greenland trade route does not consume any GP, which can be used for something else. For example one GSpy because of GW, and one GEngineer into GLH.

Greenland trade route costs 190 F/H : a galley, a settler and an optional unit, I counted an explorer. It takes roughly 30 turns to set up : 10 turn to build (// in 3 cities), 15 to move to Greenland and another 5 turn to move to Iceland or Scotland.

And Greenland trade route has no tech requisite other than sailing so while it is not that much cheaper, it can be built much, much earlier.

Now Greenland trade route is a sizeable ressource sink since the city is useless as a city and has a net loss of about 5gpt.
Whereas Astro is a heavier investement but with massive return.

Now I am fully convince that Astro Slingshot is an excellent strategy and might the best available. It's not necessarilly incompatible with Greenland Trade Route (GTR) to initiate trade earlier, but GTR is a ressource sink so if it's use is very short, it is even less worth it.

Last but not least, Astro also enables settling on other continent, namely South Afirca and Asiatic Islands. (technically, so does GTR, but not in any meaningful way)


I'll take this decision when time will come, but I will most likely opt for GTR and late Astro despite your best advice, purely for gimmick's sake.

if you settle that stone city in Central America its corn might get stolen.

I feel it actually offers more flexibility early on and better use of ressource, especially with the pop fluctuation you get from slavery. Fairly soon (20 to 60 turns in I imagine), the capital will be given permanent exploitation of the tile and the stone city will have to accept its status as a secondary city.

The idea of a "Cottage Economy" vs a "Specialist Economy" is rather antiquated. Frankly, on this map there's no reason you can't have both.

I get that, my comment was prompted by my imppression that North America only has 2 great city spot for cotage or specialist spam, namely Chicago and Louisiana. The other great spot are either coastal (not just on the coast, mainly coast tile in BFC) or amazing for production, with both food sources and hill, or plain, some even with copper or iron. But now that I think of it, these are late game consideration. Early on, the production spot, because of the food, can make excellent size 4-6 specialist towns.

Brazil and Venezuela can easily stack 6 awesome cotage/farm cities, but it will take some time clearing jungle, so that goal will come after filling most of North America.

 

[MAvL]

Many early wonders are available.except for the Mids, which is pre-built in Cairo. (Stonehenge might be prebuilt in England..did not notice) Oracle is even available from the start, but will go very fast. Hard for Aztecs to build that one. Maybe settling in place and chopping. GLH pretty much impossible to build in time.

Not sure if shines are pre-built or not. AIs do seem to pop a lot of Great Prophets early, and other great people..seems like every turn. I played a bit as the Biz the other day (fun) and captured Jerusalem in the first 3 or 4 turns. It had around a +29gpt Christian shrine in there, but no Jewish Shrine.

Great Wall very doable by settling on the stone, and it is a good wonder to have in North America just to eliminate the nuisance.

Bamassippi city would make pretty good bureau cap. Missouri city not bad for that either.

Good point about relocating capital for bureau. For bulbing consideration, as pointed out by Wrathful, as well as for REXing (Palace takes the cost of a Setler + a worker) I'll probably wait until after Optic or Astro.

The Parthenon also seem to have been built, but other than that, classical and ancient wonder are not placed. Most available medieval and Renaissance wonder are though. All Shrines are present. Maybe Salomon temple was added in the BtS version of the map?

The wonder I can currenttly see in city screen are : HGardens, Oracle, SChapel, ToArtemis, SoZeus, Mausoleum and GWall.

GLibrary, GLH, Colosseum are the one I could research quickly.
Versailles and SPaya will probably be built quickly elsewhere.


So I overlooked Great Library as an interesting Wonder which should already have been built, but I probably have no chance at it as aztec, and only mitigated interest in it as REXing.

 

[MAvL]

Here is what the map looks like after 18 turns.

Spoiler :

Labor civic is caste so as to pop borders.

I was mislead about the combat chances vs barbs, because I'm not used to monarch and the lower bonus against them, but was lucky enough to win a 29% battle (I had a back up, but it's nice to save a unit) and used the XP to secure the win of the second town.

Sadly, I just have been beaten to Great Wall. I could easily have built it instead of Texas city. I think I have to bite the bullet and look at the bright side : without great spy, it will be easier to build GScientist. So I'll probably opt for Astro slingshot after all.

 

[Wrathful]

I might play along in a couple days. About your game:

• Not sure about that mine you built. Maybe chopping is better? If you had settled your capital 2N your worker could have improved the corn or silver instead.

 

[MAvL]

Not sure about that mine you built. Maybe chopping is better? If you had settled your capital 2N your worker could have improved the corn or silver instead.

That's probably what I should have done with another BO which includes GW. In the game, I don't think I have anything interesting to chop (I want to grow before settler/worker), and that tile is the best non ressource tile. I've played a little further and found that maybe the worker could have headed to Chicago as well instead of mining.

I'd be glad to see the 2N start if you play it.

 

[Powerfaker]

I know this map reasonably well. I've played it frequently, not one time with the Aztec tough. So I will follow this with interest.

To add a little something of my knowledge, the list of prebuilt wonders (BtS 1000AD scenario):
London - Stonehenge
Cairo - Pyramids
Athens - Parthenon
Constantinople - Hagia Sofia
Rome - Apostolic Palace
Baghdad - Spiral Minaret
Barb cities - Chichen Itza (near Aztec), Shwedagon Paya (near Khmer/India)

Usually Oracle and GWall are among the first to go within 10T. The English like to pop a GE (and seem to get it every time despite 60/40 chances) and snatch GLib or ToA. Many of the other wonders go within the next 10T (on immortal).

All shrines present as well. This scenario is mostly about controlling those (well, not for Aztecs unfortunately). Another thing I like about this scenario is that you can focus on building wind/watermills right away, rather than cottages, which again does not apply to the Aztecs.I think.

Besides a Greenland city you also need an Iceland city to crossover, if I'm not mistaken??

Too bad you didn't get GWall. A GSpy would be the one thing you need if not going for Astro, to catch up in tech. To get one from a courthouse will be a lot harder.

When going for diplo victory you want to be friends with the catholic community?? So if Dublin is not barb you cannot start a war with any European, and maybe need to conquer..... Tunis )??) instead?? (if conquering a city is the goal)

What's the reasoning for Tlatelolco placed where it is....... where 1NE, coastal next to deer, and corn still in 2nd ring would make more sense to me?

Good job on conquering 2 barb cities already.

 

[MAvL]

About wonder, in my noble vanillia run, I could build GW and colossus stupidly late (in the 1300+, I have to check). Because on custom scenario, I saw all AIs had a different difficulty, I assumed their handicapp would be based on that rather than on my difficulty level (though I did not use custom for the noble run), and the timeline wouldbe the same here. I don't know if it's that I don't understand how difficulty works, if the BtS AI is different or if the additional BtS civs (Khmer and Korea)makes that much of a difference, but in the present setting (BtS custom monarch), Aztec have no chance of building anything else than GWall. GLH might be borderline possible in Kolomski (Louisiana) by chopping a lot and being lucky no one goes for it, but I'm 99% sure you can't have both GW and GLH, because of the workers and worker time you need for GLH.

Too bad you didn't get GWall. A GSpy would be the one thing you need if not going for Astro, to catch up in tech.

True. At that point I'm not committed though so I think the best choice is definitely to go for Astro, and pretend no GWall is a good thing because of saved hammer and easier GScientists.

When going for diplo victory you want to be friends with the catholic community?? So if Dublin is not barb you cannot start a war with any European, and maybe need to conquer..... Tunis )??) instead?? (if conquering a city is the goal)

Diplo victory is the most logical, and christians, if they are in good shape, are probably the best allies (and you can help them do well with resources trade and gift). But often enough, an asiatic religion spread first to your land, possibly through Inca lands first, and you might want to embrace it instead. Establighing pre optic trades should favor christianity in America.

But the main asset of America for diplo victory is not actually diplomacy, it is population. In the run I made as English, I took all of North america, as well as some 2-4 cities colonies a bit every where on sweet spots, and I won a Diplo victory almost all by my self, with 60+% world pop. As Aztec, I guess I want to REX all of America and achieve a similar goal.

I think a domination or a conquest victory is out of reach, but if I want to make war without caring, score victory should be manageable. It's definitely a bad choice compared to REX into baby boom into diplo victory, but if making war is all I care about it is possible.

Also, Viking, although christian, should still be a paria by the time I arrive to Europ, He is my target after Dub Linn.

Besides a Greenland city you also need an Iceland city to crossover, if I'm not mistaken??

No, Greenland is enough. Iceland popped once or Greenland popped twice might give Galley a shorter path, I have to check, by I'm sure Greenland popped once is enough to establigh a route for Galleys. Iceland is usually colonized by England anyway, sometimes France, and I would not mind colonizing it myself, it has 2 food sources IIRC, compared to Greenland which is something like 2 coast 6 ocean and nothing.

What's the reasoning for Tlatelolco placed where it is....... where 1NE, coastal next to deer, and corn still in 2nd ring would make more sense to me?

You're most definitely right.

My reasoning was less overlap with Kolomsky and Tenochtitlan. Overall, it allows me to cover 3 more plains and 3 less coasts, and some irrelevant deserts. What made the balance tip for that spot is that I thought : this town is going to be mostly plain farms, so with biology, I'll have an excess of food, and maybe I'll exploit windmill on desertic hill.

Fresh water is nice but irrelevant with all the ressource I'll have. Sharing spice, and more importantly fish, might play some minor role in early micro. An other consideration which just comes to mind is that a productive coastal city my come in handy to produce the 3+ caravel I want (2 ASAP to circumnavigate, 1+ to defend Greenland from barb and Vikings). And coastal cities have better trade routes (eg. harbor).

Good job on conquering 2 barb cities already.

I rushed for it with knowledge of the map, although even the first time you play the map it's hard to miss them, and at worst they build a warrior if you wait to long (in addition to the single archer they start with). The cheaty part was not to get them early but to know I don't need more warrior than what I start with to get them.

However, I'm not 100% convinced taking them that early is the absolute best move. By waiting a little, you can take them when they have just an additional warrior but are bigger in size (4-5) for chicago, which can inst whip its worker). Since the cities also grow during my reign, I guess the optimization comes from how much the food reserve is wasted upon conquest, how many hammers are wasted in the warrior, and how much gold I lose for earlier maintenance.


Aztec actually have a couple spots where windmill is the only improvement which makes sense, and I guess a couple watermill in the Amazon might help getting any hammer from wannabe cottage towns, but yeah, you can't do them early, and they're of too small importance to impact the research order.

 

[MAvL]

Ok, I went up to about 1350 then restarted the game to have GW.

Spoiler :

I'll post here a pic of the 1350 situation of the "first" run of the thread

I'm in the mid 18s in my current run and have failed a lot of my initial goals but still am having a lot of fun, fighting from behind, using a lot of game mechanisms I never used and assumed sucked, with decent chances to make it (#1 in food and land).

I'll provide details on the 1st and 2nd runs later on, but a couple comments on assumptions on my end which turned out to be wrong :

1. Aztec cannot build any other Wonder than Great Wall, and even for Great Wall, they can't afford to slack. An other wonder might be possible with excessive whipping and chopping, but I don't think they can be in time for GLH or Colossus, the 2 which make sense.
   
2. Currency is an important tech, more than I thought. So are castle xor free market (on this map at least).
   
3. Oversea trade routes (Astro) are very important, more than I thought.
4. You do need Iceland as well to go to Europe, as mentionned by Powerfaker.
   
   Spoiler :

   In Vanilla, your galleys and trade routes can go through friendly ocean squares (the galleys can even go through ennemy's). In BtS, they can't. It implies that a pre Astro trade route not only requires a city in Greenland, it also requires you to beat european powers at colonizing Iceland, or you will only be connected to the Iceland civ for ressources, and only to the Iceland city for trade routes!
   England colonized Iceland in 1565 in my 2nd run, compares with my 1625 Greenland, which was delayed by a solid 10 turns due to losing my first and only galley to barb. The one good thing about BtS is that Vikings are not in permanent war, so your not fighting caravel at least.
   England also already had Astro by 1625, but it took time for others to catch up. But I'm convinced now trade routes are even more important than ressource sharing, so foreign powers having Astro does not mean much.
   You need to pop both city at least once, preferably twice (proably not doable within a reasonable timeframe, ie preAstro), and you may have to conquer Dubh Linn if you pop Iceland only once.
   
   
5. Huyana Capac won't trade tech with you early on. It may or may not be fixed with gifts. It can definitely be fixed by "trading" techs away from him with the help of a spy, it requires to turn science off, which is bad for an early Optics/Astro, but stealing tech is the most efficient way to get tech and you don't lack people to steal from on this map.