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Earth 18 with Egypt - It has been a long while since I played and posted here!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I will have to learn about bulbing plans as well, so that I understand what happens when you don’t tech Fishing.
     
  2. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If you skip fishing you can bulb machinery once you have alphabet and some other techs. Albeit on this map not so useful as you start on the coast. Might be more fun playing a more European civ. Once you have 10-14 cities you have a huge advantage due to land.
     
  3. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Another thing I don't understand is how this is not 50% of land area.

    Spoiler :


    upload_2020-2-19_21-32-48.png


    Domination victory is like fighting a land war in Asia. It's still quite a few turns away. I wonder what counts as land area. Do I have to fill it with city BFC's in stupid locations or does coast count as land area? The picture is showing just under 40%. It will go up a little bit when some cities come under control.

    Maybe I give up on it and go for space. It's going to be a while before I go for a victory like this. Your religious victory would have been about 500 years earlier, correct?

    I'm hoping to have this wrapped up Friday and then I might start..... a normal Eygpt game - with a proper shadow.
     
    earthy likes this.
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    The land % only includes land contained within your culture. Looks like Australia, SA and most of NA is not under your control. Haven't play Earth in a very long time so not sure how much ice is up N or if Antarctica has an presence at all down very S. Probably ice. Land ice does count toward total land (not sea ice)
     
    earthy likes this.
  5. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    that's only 40%? does it count the ice or something


    edit: Lymond answered my question before I even asked it :eek:
     
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  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    There is about 2000 or so land tiles. Vassal land tiles count half what your land tiles are worth. So complete kills help. You might need to wipe out all the AI/Vassal or settle 20 cities including Australia. With border pops maybe less pending on how much new culture they grab. There is a lot of forest near the Incan empire.
     
  7. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Okay, I finally got it.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-2-20_20-32-26.png

    upload_2020-2-20_20-32-38.png


    I finished off the Chinese, took one Japanese city on an island, then made all the surviving opponents capitulate.

    I left about 600 years worth of history unwritten. I got to playing on the weekend and it got very interesting when....

    Spoiler :


    upload_2020-2-20_20-36-58.png



    Louis decided to vassal to China and the entire world broke out in war and it was like that to the end of the game.

    After the weekend, I was into turn sets that were taking an entire evening and I never got to posting. I still have a whole bunch of pictures!

    At least I finished it!
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Trout

    Trout Chieftain

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    I am not one of the best players on this forum but I play the Earth 18 scenario alot so feel like my thoughts may be helpful on this topic. When it comes to Earth 18, the best way to play is extreme aggression because even at higher levels, AI does not start with archers and because since there are 18 civs, there are juicy AI capitals everywhere that can be captured and catapult you ahead as opposed to building your second and third cities from a settler build. So for example, Egypt can capture Arab capital and Persian capital along with building a city south of Thebes that are all powerhouse cities and from there you have basically won no matter which level you are playing at. For Egypt, TGW is an awesome wonder to get because you have stone in your BFC and a whole lot of barbarians spawn in Africa. More than anywhere else because it is large and there is only Egypt and Mali located there. Mali has by far the worst map location of any civ so they will expand very slowly.

    Another thing to know where strategy in this scenario differs from standard advice given in this forum is that there is alot of water on this map so for the majority of civs you should go after the Great Lighthouse if at all possible. The majority of cities on this map are coastal and capturing it from another civ often doesn't work because the map is so vast. For example, if you start in Asia such as Mongols, China, or Japan. You are hosed if Rome or England builds it.

    Lastly, if you want to have a nice foot-stomping route of the AI's, then start as Romans, Spanish, Germans, or French and then quickly capture the capitals of the three of them you are not. After that, you will be so far ahead with four extremely powerful cities within close distance of each other that you have won and can pursue any strategy from there that you desire. In my experience the easiest civs to win with are Rome and France. With a second tier of China, Spain, Germany, and Greece. Japan and England can make for an interesting game as you have an extremely powerful capital and second city location on your island but have to overcome your island start. Inca are nerfed alot in this scenario by their map location but in time can overcome that. But it will be a LONG time.
     
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  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    The first thing I did was move the stone out of my BFC. I might have had access to it on Turn 25. I was looking for am early production site with a little more health.

    But yes, the Earth map is a lot of fun!
     
  10. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I used to think there were lessons applicable to normal games, but not so much anymore.
     
  11. IncanCanuck

    IncanCanuck Chieftain

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    Hi there @Harv thanks for this thread. Enjoyed reading. I too enjoy playing Earth 18 map and Egypt are one of my favourites.

    Please could you provide a link for the comment about Thebes being the best production site? Sorry - I have searched but cannot find it.

    I often move my capital north, into the delta in order to open up trade routes with Greece early on. Then build a 2nd city on the site of Thebes, a 3rd on the west corner of the fertile region and a 4th in the south.
     
    Harv likes this.
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    So fun to see posts from @Trout & @IncanCanuck !
    I had no idea that there where so many playing and enjoying this scenario map.
    Is there some history from civ1, 2 and 3 with these type of scenarios that can explain some of the popularity? :)
     
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I found it a bit frustrating. I tried playing English and I was able to take out French, Germans and some of Russia with HA. The lack of Archers at start really slows down the AI. I guess the game gets more interesting in later stages but by then you have a big advantage. That being said Harv had fun playing this.
     
  14. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I will look for the thread as requested.

    Something funny I remember is the OP was having computer problems and it took a long time before he got his computer back.
     
  15. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Prince

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    Yeah, best strategy no matter who you are on Earth18 is going aggressive to snag free cities and more land Spam Warriors or Axes in Europe, Chariots in Africa/Middle-East, China and Mongolia are so close you can use either. Mansa has a tough time mostly due to distances, but can conquer Hatty with Skirm spam with Barracks. Even England and Japan can capture footholds on the continent by killing France/China with Warrior spam on Immortal or below. Qin is probably safe on Deity as he can expand and Toku doesn't have horses like Liz though.

    First time I played the map I beat it with Rome, Praets are stupidly good with so many close targets and then when you have all of Europe, Britain+Ireland+Iceland, Scandinavia and even some progress towards the Russian heartland or Turkey you can easily have nearly 40 cities already. I then mostly played it trying to figure out reliable strategy paths for each player and their strengths.

    Roughly in order of difficulty:
    Spoiler :
    Rome: Warrior rush Fred to prevent Archers/Axes, hit Louis next, roll on Alex with Axes or Praets quick-ish before he stacks up, ideally as he walks off to expand somewhere. Kill Izzy, Liz and Cathy at your leisure, do whatever you want with your immense land. Feels unstoppable.

    Greece: Alex's traits are PERFECT for this map. AGG warriors with non-AGG neighbors, PHI lets you GS spam back into the tech race after wrecking your economy. Kill Rome first to prevent him stealing your copper, roll over all nearby with AGG Axes if they manage to survive AGG+Barracks Warrior spam, which they really shouldn't

    Persia: Amazingly hammer-strong capitol (I usually settle on the wine to get a lighthouse for the clam), anti-archer chariot unit with easy horse access, two weak targets close-ish in Hatty and Asoka, IMP with tons of natural hammers, excellent cottage land in Mesopotamia and India. The map is a turkey-shoot for Cyrus, the only issue is managing the sprawl of the empire and taking down Saladin in a timely fashion before he stacks like 8 triple promo Archers in each of his hill cities. As Hatty is weak and Asoka is slowed immensely by jungle (and worker steals :D) I usually get him dead ASAP.

    Germany: Settle south of SIP to more efficiently use land. Guaranteed Copper and you can also just Archer rush with Hunting start. Cathy and JC tend to expand right up to you leaving you with easy targets, Louis, Izzy and Liz are always soft and can be cleaned up later. Alex is the only problem if he gets to stacking before you arrive, so either hit him ASAP or last when you've amassed cities and Axes and he can't stop you anyway. ORG+PHI is another great trait combo for managing the sprawl and staying ahead in tech.

    China: you start on top of Genghis with better land than him and guaranteed horses even if you move Beijing to the coast; he's easily dead and out of your hair before he becomes a problem. Or you could expand to block him from coming South, wait and do the Cho-ko thing if you care to. You are surrounded by by some of the richest land on the map and nearly every resource you could want with almost no contention including Copper and Marble, and access to Silk, Incense, Sugar and Banana that are usually semi-monopolized. Managing empire sprawl and barbs is Qin's biggest challenge. Oh, and you can have a bit of fun beating back Toku's pathetic colonization attempts or racing Asoka for Indochina that you don't really need.

    Russia: Cathy is in a very dominant position from the start like Qin, with tons of uncontested land to use. She has guaranteed horse and CRE/IMP means you'll ALWAYS be able to beat Freddy to Scandinavia if you don't just chariot him to death right away. You don't even need to attack Eastern Europe and can just win the settling war with Cyrus/Freddy and just crush the map later. Barbs are a bit more of an issue as you'll be taking the whole brunt of them for a while with tundra that wont be settled for a long time North and NW,, and it's easy to over expand quickly with IMP, though CRE libraries help with staying alive in tech. Still, the guaranteed land advantage is sick.

    Spain: DO NOT SIP, move Madrid to a spot further W or NW so you can backfill cities on Iberia. Settling 1NW is ideal for the long-term, 1W gives PH settle and Horses in the BFC if you need them before 100culture/2nd city; both spots block 2nd cities from France/Rome between you. Kill Rome first before he gets out of hand, then chew your way through Germany and France, using chariots to stay on top of them (Freddy has Copper!) with the longer travel times. Alex will have to wait, and Cathy's further away/has more chance to settle into Scandinavia, so this one's tougher. However, Spain's Curiasser UU is ungodly awesome on what amounts to a massive Pangaea, and you can wreck the old world in exchange for a tougher early game.

    France: Largely the same for the European civs. Warrior rushing Freddy for his copper is the soundest way forward and this secures Axes and clips him out of taking Scandinavia. Rome is also a high priority target like always. Your starting land is incredible and you have horse. I only put Louis below Izzy because she gets more mileage out of Conqs moving forward and she gains more from killing Louis than the other way around, even if Louis' traits and techs are better.

    England: GLH, mostly playing passively is the easy way. Nobody can really threaten you until Astro and you can spam GPs and wonders. I've won cultural multiple times with her, never being attacked, and also gone for a more aggressive campaign of killing Louis (mostly to alleviate cultural pressure) and settling Scandinavia quickly out to ~12 cities and Cuir attacking the whole map too. That's more of a slog but it's satisfying!

    Egypt: Hatty has the epic War Chariot that can overcome Saladin's PRO hill city archer crap and Mansa Skirms with guaranteed horse, amazing cottage land for up to 4 cities without even contesting land, and controls access to an entire continent through her position near the Suez with only 2 weak rivals nearby. However, her starting hammers are weak, so you need to get a lot done quickly while opponents are still vulnerable enough to steal their better hammer-rich spots. Also, the rest of Africa outside of her immediate starting area is mediocre or jungled, meaning she hits a wall soon and slower development into the late game. Killing Cyrus first is paramount, as he's one of the more successful AIs on this map and will expand like crazy into all the good spots if you can't check him. After that you can kill off Saladin while blocking Cathy/Alex from coming into Mesopotamia, and then kill Asoka/Mansa and fill out your immense holdings at your leisure. Barbs are less of an issue with CRE pushing borders + War Chariots.

    Aztec: All the New World civs play similar in some regard, mostly isolated for much of the game and tons of land to take, usually leading to a position behind in tech but far ahead in landpower when you finally meet the other supercontinent. Monty and Rosie have each other to deal with, at the very least. Monty's capitol is freaking INCREDIBLE, especially founded anywhere N of SIP (I like 2N for the massive hammer potential). It's stupid easy to just plop down city 2 on the stone and even beat some of the notorious wonder spammers in the old world (Louis, Qin, Hatty, Cyrus) to things like Stonehenge or Great Wall, both very useful for the sheer amount of cities available to put out there. It's also possible to go to the coast and snag GLH/Colossus just like you would if playing Rosie, who you can pretty much kill at your leisure as he's a total weenie. If you want to kill him fast though AGG warriors and then Jaguars make it easy, but I'd snag some free workers first.

    America: Well, on the flip side of things, Monty is more of a problem. Even if you do avoid the likely aggression (possible through city gifting or if he grabs a religion), he expands voraciously up the great plains and blocks off the West to you. I usually just warrior choke him while building GLH as Rosie, with an eye on Colossus as well. I have also managed to grab Mids too, which is likewise very handy in what amounts to isolation. Then just pick up Copper and end him, settle out the continent, etc.

    Mongolia: Your success depends heavily on how you can deal with Qin; killing him is the best option, which can be achieved with AGG warriors or Chariots (guaranteed horse for Genghis), which leads to a very China-like game. It's also possible to just rush him for control of Korea/NE China and force him South, then expand West yourself along the fertile Angara and Yenisei river valleys until you reach Russia/Persia who like to expand up Northward just East of the Urals, leaving you with a spread out empire but enough land to make a later push....this leaves the problem of still a relatively strong China right next door if you ignore him though.

    Arabia: Similar to other members in this parts of the world, kill Cyrus early for his hammer-rich land and to secure the cottage lands in Mesopotamia for yourself. Hatty and Asoka remain weak so you can take them afterward. This is a bit tougher though as Saladin only really has a good cap and a decent second city to the South in terms of production, his techs suck and slow him down even more as you need to go fishing, Mining and AH, and Immortals are technically superior (getting defensive boni) to the best you can muster early, the Chariot. You also have to deal with Hatty early enough to prevent her War Chariots from coming out or she'll be a lot harder to bully without starting with the boon of Cyrus' fantastic hammer-filled land to just push her over like he does.


    India: Extremely dependent on taking Cyrus ASAP. No early strategic resource, lacking hammers and tons of jungle, the most powerful AI on the map (Qin) on one side and another of the strongest and most expansionist on the other (Cyrus) who will quickly close in and pressure for land with his IMP trait + high natural hammers. Even with Fast Workers and decent traits/techs Asoka is in a pickle if you can't get something done. Straight up warrior rushing Cyrus is the best bet, though if you can't get it done I suppose there is also the option of settling ASAP to steal Cyrus' horse (won't work on Deity, I'm sure, as he'll block you at the Indus as his 3rd city) or blocking the Indus yourself to Cyrus, keeping Qin from coming across the Brahmaputra, and then sitting back and waiting for Elepult. Once you take Cyrus though, it's smooth sailing and general Africa/Middle-East civ play. TBH I've always just hinged on killing him and never played out a game another way with India.

    Inca: Largely alone, weak and smaller land than just about everybody except Saladin and Mansa, and with the nearest land for the taking over the Andes almost completely jungled and quite resource sparse, Huayna has difficulties gaining momentum for a long time. GLH + an exploring workboat is your best friend here, I'd argue nearly essential for him as your greatest commerce source for a long time will be coastal trade with America/Aztec and working FIN coast tiles (Colossus is good too, but difficult to swing before someone else). After that settle what you can along your coast, pick up the Copper to be had, and then land to push in around the Andes. I have more success landing on the Chilean coast and using the natural choke with the mountains to resist the barb rush until I can build up enough defenders to push into the continent; the land is also more immediately improvable on the southern side of the continent. Then it's a game of rapidly expanding along the North and East coasts to keep colonizers out and then developing all that jungle. It's a lot more difficult that playing Aztec/America, and boring too, but you can eventually develop into a powerhouse nation for Space or post-Renaissance war.

    Japan: GLH + Island expansion is the name of the game here. The reason I find Japan to be so difficult is that he lacks powerful production spots outside of southern Honshu until you get all the way to Australia (well, Indonesia is okay when it's eventually fully developed), and that many civs will be contesting you for islands. I recommend acity near Malaysia that you can gate the area with until you are ready to expand yourself. Like Hatty he has a strong start but quickly peters out. The difference is your nearest neighbor is separated by sea and very strong, making it difficult to do anything to him. The internet was quite important I remember too in keeping up in the space race once your tech rate plateaus, and it's a long time to build the spaceship with only like 2-3 good hammer spots. You CAN play a more aggressive style and attack Qin, I have pulled it off, but then you just have to deal with GK in your face and India being unchecked in expansion through the South

    Mali: Quite simply the most difficult. Mansa is hard mode. Rush to skirms, steal some workers off Hatty and build roads back across the desert, mass up and hit her. Once she's dead you have all of Africa to develop, which takes quite awhile and you'll be behind even with the great inital cottage potential of your respective capitol areas.. The first few times I did this I did a Cav attack and then Modern War with Tanks + spies, actually lost to Russia's spacerace once.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    With Mansa I would probably move him 5 turns directly below Eygpt.
     
  17. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I wish I could find that thread on Earth18. The OP played multiplayer on it.

    It’s kind of hard to put the civs in order of difficulty. Have you played them all? I have no idea why you ranked England #9. The thread I couldn’t find ranked it in the top tier with Rome.

    Then you ranked Egypt as #10 and said starting hammers are weak. I will have to check other capital city sites. The site I chose had 13 hammers at size 5 with marble quarry, horse pasture, and two desert mines.

    The thread I can’t find placed Egypt in the second tier with China and Japan and some of the European countries. It also claimed that the original location of Thebes is the best production site on the map. For all I know, he has a levy and workshops and state property for a bunch of 3f5h tiles.

    At the bottom, he had Inca, Mali, and Arabia.

    Added: Egypt’s big weakness is no metal. They can race for that spot by Babylon, attack Persia, or go into Africa, I guess.
     
  18. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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  19. Trout

    Trout Chieftain

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    The post from Joe Hollywood is very old. Although old threads is all that there are for Earth 18. To respond to several of the earlier posts. Egypt is definitely not a hammer-rich capital when compared to the others. The best city site is Paris which has HOF-quality to it. Pigs, wheat, clams, horses, iron, marble, stone, wine, two coals, a uranium and an aluminum. So that makes twelve resource tiles in your BFC!! :cool: I think they did that because if you play MP or peacefully you are hemmed in on all sides. But if you just warrior rush (or chariot rush) your neighbors who have similarly ridiculously rich capital cities then you are on rock-and-roll mode at that point. Persepolis is very hammer rich but is food-poor. The best thing to do with Persia is to settle one north to grab the horses or one south to be on the coast and then build TGH. I usually grab the horses and then take out India, Arabia, and Egypt in that order. Avoid Greece (any history buff knows what phalanxes did to the immortals so you want to learn from history not repeat it :thumbsup:) until later. Incas and Mansa are hard mode on this map. If you can play one of them on Deity and win, I would like to know about it as I don't believe it has ever been done. For Mansa, you almost need to punt on your geography and go east to the tile just northwest of the elephants on the Nile River. That is a powerful city site although you will have health problems until you can get the health resources in Northwest Africa and/or Arabia. For Asian civs, it is all about China. If you are China, you just expand. If you are GK, then your only option is to take out China almost immediately. For Toku, you either need to immediately take out China or grab Korea before the others get there which is a very rich area then grab IndoChina before China or India get there. If you go that route, then your samurais can take care of your Chinese issue a bit later. In the New World, America is best as a human and as an AI, Monty will end up dominating all of North America. Hope some of this helps
     
  20. IncanCanuck

    IncanCanuck Chieftain

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    Thank you for sharing. Very interesting.

    My approach to Egypt in the Earth 18 Civ scenario is to be extremely aggressive and to get on the front foot early.

    I settle my capital at the Nile delta on the Mediterranean coast for early trade route access.

    upload_2020-4-18_13-3-38.png

    My typical approach is to send my Warrior to Arabia to steal a worker.

    upload_2020-4-18_13-4-36.png

    When my first Warrior is ready I head north and Warrior Rush Greece who a) start with fishing and always build work boats rather than defences and b) become exponentially more difficult to take.

    With the Creative trait, you establish an early trade route between Athens and your capital once Athen's borders pop.

    At this point, I'll have two cities, connected one warrior and 3 workers so I will build a Settler in my capital whilst finishing the research of Animal Husbandry.

    Following Animal Husbandry, I'll start my 3 cities producing War Chariots with Athens working it's plains, hill, marble tile and my capital and 3rd city focusing on food, ready to whip out a massive army at Bronze Working/Slavery.

    upload_2020-4-18_13-12-54.png

    Once you hit Bronze Working and adopt Slavery and whip out 8-10 War Chariots, most of the world is a sitting duck.

    At this point, I usually go miles too far and crash my economy :lol: In my best game, I took Rome, Arabia and Persia then rebuilt the economy with Pottery, Fishing and Sailing and went on to Vassal the rest of Europe, Russia, India and Mali and bully the rest whilst beelining a Diplomatic Victory.

    The most annoying thing is that I often find the AI make a real mess of city placement in the floodplains of the middle east. I also struggle to decide between fewer, large cities on the floodplains or multiple small ones.

    I keep meaning to go back through and use this as a platform for a Domination victory but my sadly my ability to manage an economy is far less than building a military.

    The screenshots are from a Deity save so it does work at a high level.
     

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