Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

Who do you think will win in November?


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Do you think AOC is going full centrist, or is she just trying to move into a more powerful position where the people she will need to support her in a Senate and/or POTUS run won't just outright oppose her, like what happened to Bernie?

It's quite possible that this is the calculation she's trying to make. She wants to be in a position where no one can say she isn't a Democrat, which I think ultimately was the most damning attack line against Bernie in the Democratic primaries. It's less a matter of ideology ("full centrist") and more orientation toward the party as an institution and its "establishment."

You think that she will lose the "outsider" vibe based on videos, evidence, proof and such? Are the kind of voters who voted for Trump, but would also vote for her, the kind of voters that will change their feelings based on some negative ads?

Not so much based on "evidence, proof and such" but more that there is ample material out there for the right-wing garbage that makes up most of the media that the "I want an outsider" type voters are exposed to to create the necessary associations to paint her as an insider.

I think you have a point about Israel... Democrats lost, so what was it all for? They could have lost putting more pressure on Netanyahu and possibly even forcing a ceasefire... but I've got to point out that this is all 20/20 hindsight.

I wanted to respond to this first because of course this is all 20/20 hindsight...but in hindsight, yes, of course Biden should have been clear throughout that he would not serve a second term. He should have dropped his institutionalism and pushed for things like abolishing the filibuster and really tried to go hard on domestic policy when he had the chance. Not entirely hindsight here, because I warned throughout the last four years that Democrats' political survival was at stake and letting Sinema, Manchin and the goddamn Senate parliamentarian thwart their domestic agenda would torch their credibility.

With respect to Israel the issue was less "pushing harder for a ceasefire" and more realizing that Netanyahu should be treated as a US Republican using his position as head of a US military outpost to, in effect, campaign for Trump. Far more than any details of policy, Americans just don't want to see (real) violence on the tv and Biden constantly claiming he was working toward a ceasefire which never materialized made him look like either a feckless incompetent or a liar. Imo, to the extent that Gaza had an impact on the election, most of it was this projection of weakness that hurt Biden far more than any of the concrete policy issues at play. Same argument applies to Ukraine to a certain extent.

In retrospect, it feels like scapegoating... its Biden's fault Harris lost... really?

To a certain extent, I agree, because like 2016 I will insist that this election was winnable, just not with the Liz Cheney campaign that Harris ran. I don't think it would be fair to pin all the blame for the current situation on Biden but at the same time I foresaw something broadly like this when Biden was nominated in 2020 and especially (as I've noted elsewhere) when Democrats did not get comfortable majorities in Congress in 2020 and outright lost the House in '22.

A lot of people talk about the advantage the electoral system gives the GOP and that's all valid but they have another advantage less talked about, which we might call the Constitutional problem: the US is set up to make doing things difficult, and the Democrats really need to do things a lot of the time. Not just things, big transformative things that have an immediate effect on people's lives - the things the Constitution makes it very difficult to do. All the GOP has to do is sit on their hands and that in itself validates their argument that government is the problem and the solution is to have it do nothing.
 
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All the GOP has to do is sit on their hands and that in itself validates their argument that government is the problem and the solution is to have it do nothing.
Don't think this is true anymore. Trump has shifted the expectation. He railed against the Biden economy and promised implicitly to make it better again, with realignments arguably following those promises.

If he doesn't succeed there, which I doubt many believe he will, there is a good chance of Dems regaining support.

That Reagan promise of what government should do I'm willing to bet is shattered, it's just not conventional wisdom yet.
 
Trump has been non stop lying about everything for 9 years: Dems are terrible, women are terrible, economy is terrible, voting is rigged, he will do this he will do that, on and on. After the first year of 30,000 lies, he had normalized his lying and it has been mostly ignored by everyone except MAGA, talk radio and the GOP who have embraced it all as true. And if you tell big enough lies long enough, they get believed. looking back the best plan would have been to ignore him completely and not covered him at all in any media. Let him wonder in his own wilderness. That lesson should have been learned after 2020.
 
Don't think this is true anymore. Trump has shifted the expectation. He railed against the Biden economy and promised implicitly to make it better again, with realignments arguably following those promises.

If he doesn't succeed there, which I doubt many believe he will, there is a good chance of Dems regaining support.

That Reagan promise of what government should do I'm willing to bet is shattered, it's just not conventional wisdom yet.
And what would that "better economy" look like? What measures would be improved?
 
I analogized it to Biden being Frodo and refusing to give up the ring and Pelosi being Sméagol having to jump him and literally bite it off.
The image that description conjures is pure comedy gold. Bravo! Sir!
 
Don't think this is true anymore. Trump has shifted the expectation. He railed against the Biden economy and promised implicitly to make it better again, with realignments arguably following those promises.

If he doesn't succeed there, which I doubt many believe he will, there is a good chance of Dems regaining support.

That Reagan promise of what government should do I'm willing to bet is shattered, it's just not conventional wisdom yet.


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And what would that "better economy" look like? What measures would be improved?
Can't answer that. Two schools of thought on it

A: Republicans believe the economy is good as a result of propaganda

Data indicates that is true, but I'm not sure if Trump's gains are so immersed in that media ecosystem that all his gains will be permanent if things don't actually improve.

B: Trump voters were responding to real things, wage growth vs inflation, cost of living, and believed him better able to deal with these things, which presumably would reverse if things do not get better(or get worse)
 
The real reason why Trump is a two term president

"maybe we should give the dogs a vote as well."

"voted for Trump and you not genocide..."

If anything Trump will speed up Israels genocidal actions in the occupied territories.

Voters who vote for AOC and Trump I cant take seriously as critical thinkers. It seems like they put the same amount of thought into the election that it takes to choose between two different types of scratch off lottery tickets. I like the shiney one!

“It’s real simple … Trump and you care for the working class” Does he? Does he really?

Enacting tax cuts that overwhelmingly favor the wealthy over the average worker

Taking billions out of workers’ pockets by weakening or abandoning regulations that protect their pay

Blocking workers from access to the courts by allowing mandatory arbitration clauses in employment contracts

Pushing immigration policies that hurt all workers

Rolling back regulations that protect worker pay and safety

Stacking the Federal Reserve Board with candidates friendlier to Wall Street than to working families

Ensuring Wall Street can pocket more of workers’ retirement savings

Stacking the Supreme Court against workers by appointing Neil Gorsuch

Trying to take affordable health care away from millions of working people

Undercutting key worker protection agencies by nominating anti-worker leaders



I'm sorry this election has left me even more cynical than I already am. I get the reasoning to a certain degree show my disdain at the top of the ticket while voting my conscience at the bottom. However, considering the stakes, which are huge, that kinda choice is at best haphazard at worst just dangerous and purely nonsensical if you believe Trump cares about working people. He cares if they vote for him past that they are an afterthought.
 
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It's quite possible that this is the calculation she's trying to make. She wants to be in a position where no one can say she isn't a Democrat, which I think ultimately was the most damning attack line against Bernie in the Democratic primaries.
This is my take as well, however...
It's less a matter of ideology ("full centrist") and more orientation toward the party as an institution and its "establishment."
Not so much based on "evidence, proof and such" but more that there is ample material out there for the right-wing garbage that makes up most of the media that the "I want an outsider" type voters are exposed to to create the necessary associations to paint her as an insider.
Do you think AOC is going to be successfully branded as "establishment" over the next 4 years? I'm thinking the Republicans will fall into the trap of (as they always do) of labelling her as a "radical leftist", when ironically, what they should probably do, is lean hard into labeling her as mainstream/establishment. I don't know if they can have it both ways.
I wanted to respond to this first
I honestly was gobsmacked that you didn't.
because of course this is all 20/20 hindsight...but in hindsight, yes, of course Biden should have been clear throughout that he would not serve a second term.
Yes, but as I consistently predicted, this was not possible or a remotely reasonable expectation. You can of course imagine the sheer gargantuan magnitude of ego a person would have to posses to even run for POTUS in the first place. The things that spring to mind are Godzilla, the Empire State Building, The Grand Canyon (as in the crater in their soul that needs to be filled with adoration and power) ... to be the avatar of the Statue of Liberty herself, the modern day Colossus of Rhodes... Biden saw the one ring Presidency as his lifetime achievement award... all those days and nights back and forth on the train from Delaware finally coming to fruition and paying off... a lifetime of public service earning him the ultimate "brass ring"... I am still in disbelief that he gave it up. I thought that there was no way he would. I speculate that less than 1% of people on this planet would have given up the Presidency in his shoes, even after the disastrous debate performance. Can you imagine Trump giving up his campaign after a poor debate?
He should have dropped his institutionalism and pushed for things like abolishing the filibuster
As an aside... the Democrats should push to nuke the filibuster now, while they are in the minority. They should also try to get rid of the electoral college now, while they are in the minority and just lost the popular vote. They might be able to get enough Republicans (who, like Democrats, always think they will win the next election) to go along with them.
With respect to Israel the issue was less "pushing harder for a ceasefire" and more realizing that Netanyahu should be treated as a US Republican using his position as head of a US military outpost to, in effect, campaign for Trump.
Yes. Preach Lex, preach.
Far more than any details of policy, Americans just don't want to see (real) violence on the tv and Biden constantly claiming he was working toward a ceasefire which never materialized made him look like either a feckless incompetent or a liar. Imo, to the extent that Gaza had an impact on the election, most of it was this projection of weakness that hurt Biden far more than any of the concrete policy issues at play. Same argument applies to Ukraine to a certain extent.
Preach, preach, preach.
like 2016 I will insist that this election was winnable
No. Kamala Harris needed to be at 8% nationally to win. She never got above 4%. She needed 3% to overcome the Republican EC advantage and another 3 to 5% to overcome the under-polling of Trump that has been consistent and well documented. When Harris was polling a tie on RCP, 0.8% on 538 and 1.2% on Silver Bulletin the day before the election, the die was cast. I didn't say so at the time because hedging is lame :thumbsdown: , but I was clear eyed about the realities of the polling... which is why I laughed so hard at @innonimatu's post. It was a laugh/cry:lol::cry:

Now if you mean Democrats could have won by Biden never running, or Pelosi biting the ring off Biden's finger earlier... that, as I've said is not a reasonable outlook. Harris had very little (or no) chance to win the way the race went. You still haven't answered whether you voted for her or not, and whether you blame your voting decision on Biden rather than say... Harris.
just not with the Liz Cheney campaign that Harris ran. I don't think it would be fair to pin all the blame for the current situation on Biden but at the same time I foresaw something broadly like this when Biden was nominated in 2020 and especially (as I've noted elsewhere) when Democrats did not get comfortable majorities in Congress in 2020 and outright lost the House in '22.
Recall that the 2022 election was predicted to be a "Red wave" and because that did not materialize the Democrats regarded it as a win, which is part of what Biden used as his excuse to run for re-election. The Democrats self-spun a loss as a win, and as a result got an even bigger loss in 2024.
A lot of people talk about the advantage the electoral system gives the GOP and that's all valid but they have another advantage less talked about, which we might call the Constitutional problem: the US is set up to make doing things difficult, and the Democrats really need to do things a lot of the time. Not just things, big transformative things that have an immediate effect on people's lives - the things the Constitution makes it very difficult to do. All the GOP has to do is sit on their hands and that in itself validates their argument that government is the problem and the solution is to have it do nothing.
That is why the Democrats, in the minority, have a chance to upend that. End the filibuster and end the electoral college. It will mean major short term pain but also major long term gain. For starters... It will stop potential Democratic voters from constantly claiming that they won't vote for the Democratic candidate because they are in a place where their vote doesn't matter.
 
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End the filibuster and end the electoral college.
It should be noted that the Electoral College is a Constitutional thing and will require an amendment to it (either 2/3rds of Congress or 2/3rds of the states to propose and 3/4ths of the states to ratify) to get rid of it.

There is a set of bills that have gone through several state houses that makes electors based off population (I forget the name), but it needs at least 270 electors to have teeth and be active.
 
A deep loss of confidence appears to have occurred.
Indeed and why shouldn't it?

I think you have a point about Israel... Democrats lost, so what was it all for? They could have lost putting more pressure on Netanyahu and possibly even forcing a ceasefire...
Very few gaf about foreign affairs. Maybe if they could've pointed to how money pulled away from supporting foreign wars could've been used to support national well being.

I dunno, Harris just lacked charisma and any sort of popular mandate. She was like an ad you didn't ask for and have to wait to skip. Only reason to watch the ad is cause you're afraid of the horror flick on that will play if you don't watch.
 
Yes I can see how that would be a problem..lack of wealth distribution ? That is the system they set up for themselves though.

Not like they were colonized or something, at least not recently ;)

And electing millionaires will fix that ?
 
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