Ethics of Amazon

[Fippy]

So i got curious and searched for Handbook of Medieval Exchange.
No surprises with Amazon showing up as first result..from $261 on .com or 341 Euro in .de (my location).
All used in "very good" condition.

But looky what i found one page later..
Jack Baldwin Rare Books buy 1 used for EUR 85,92.

Looks like a rare book for sure and i have no idea what it really costs.
But i sure know that Scamazon always comes up as first search-engine result, annoying even when not using them.

 

[lymond]

So i got curious and searched for Handbook of Medieval Exchange.
.

Don't take this as any kinda defense for Amazon, but those are private 3rd market sellers. Amazon does not sell that book directly nor set the pricing. In general, you can find some really good deals through their marketplace of sellers for general stuff, but you will get some off the wall prices for things like rare books, music, or even some tech/games. Amazon can have some very good deals at times, but I always check around for the best price when I need something...and balanced with any shipping some I'm a Prime member.

 

[Hygro]

So i got curious and searched for Handbook of Medieval Exchange.
No surprises with Amazon showing up as first result..from $261 on .com or 341 Euro in .de (my location).
All used in "very good" condition.

But looky what i found one page later..
Jack Baldwin Rare Books buy 1 used for EUR 85,92.

Looks like a rare book for sure and i have no idea what it really costs.
But i sure know that Scamazon always comes up as first search-engine result, annoying even when not using them.

There was one for $50 a while back, I didn’t buy it

 

[Hygro]

I think I did that sort of stuff for both fun and profit.

There’s cameras in the van and cops in the street. I won’t say they were forced to do it, but I will say it say it’s not something I’ve seen in any other context, and it was oddly fitting.

 

[Bamspeedy]

1-3 Christmasses ago, I think 2020, I remember seeing an Amazon truck driving through the neighborhood. The sliding door was open and holding a box and ready to jump out was a middle-school girl who looked like the daughter of the driver. I thought of taking a picture but since its an obvious violation of Amazon policy, I didn't want to get the family in trouble — trouble for what is clearly a job so low wage, to make a profit it is being subsidized by safety violating child labor.

In Amazon's defense, that sounds like a lazy parent than 'the driver needed their kid's help to make a profit'.

But, I still agree 'independent contractor' work is not always what it's hyped up to be. Even without working for Amazon, but other 'gig' deliveries, I've heard of people getting all excited about how much $/hour they are making, but of course you got to subtract gas, wear and tear, etc. then it's not that much more. Then they file taxes......and sometimes in for a big surprise!

Third party sellers on Amazon/Walmart are a mix bag. Can be cheaper, but can also price gouge. When the retro NES came out and retailers were selling them for $60 but were always sold out within minutes, but there were some for sale elsewhere, including 3rd party sellers through Amazon or Walmart selling them for $250 (or much more).

 

[Farm Boy]

Nothing sounds particularly lazy in that story. That's a person working that brings their kid, probably because there is nowhere else for them to be at the moment, other than with the parent, working. They just happened to be moving and helping instead of reading or stuffed into their phone waiting for the workday to end. Like a kid stuck in the office, or daycare, might do.

 

[bernie14]

Facts don't care about your feelings, you triggered snowflake

yeah, that is exactly what I was thinking when watching the video. At least the fat guy looked happy mopping up the aisles

 

[Hygro]

I can’t imagine during the frenzy of delivering packages to reach bonuses that allow you to break even - wait you all know how the gig economy works, right? - any parent bringing their kid to have a system of efficiency is doing it tight-minded and not lazy. But if the mom was making any real money she wouldn’t have considered risking losing her job (there are cameras in the vans) and or getting a ticket eating all the savings, or getting arrested for child endangerment, unless a default lack of money is at stake.

The obnoxious part is I know a few of you need me to spell out that these were brown skin people in a white neighborhood before it “clicks” since it didn’t on the first pass.

You will never see a FedEx driver passing packages to their kid to jump out an already open door.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Many 'gig' drivers have to supply their own vehicle, I'd be surprised if there were cameras in those. The vans owned by Amazon, sure, they probably have cameras.

With 400,000 drivers and 30,000 vans, it's obvious some of those drivers are supplying their own vehicles.

There are other reasons besides cost that can make one unable to find daycare* and leaving them home alone can be child endangerment depending on age and situation.

*Daycare is not very compatible with variable work schedules, part time, weekends, people who have to work past 5 PM, etc

 

[MaryKB]

We humans have a tendency to fill in details, such as motives and emotional states, to fit our own biases. We don't know why this driver had their child with them, and we'll never hear the whole story.

 

[Spidernova]

Many 'gig' drivers have to supply their own vehicle, I'd be surprised if there were cameras in those. The vans owned by Amazon, sure, they probably have cameras.

With 400,000 drivers and 30,000 vans, it's obvious some of those drivers are supplying their own vehicles.

There are other reasons besides cost that can make one unable to find daycare* and leaving them home alone can be child endangerment depending on age and situation.

*Daycare is not very compatible with variable work schedules, part time, weekends, people who have to work past 5 PM, etc

DSP owners generally have the amazon branded ones, and a few white rental vans in reserve. Might have been a rental, they dont have cameras.

 

[Bamspeedy]

DSP owners generally have the amazon branded ones, and a few white rental vans in reserve. Might have been a rental, they dont have cameras.

Had to look up what DSP means...oh, the companies who hire several drivers (delivery service providers) to deliver on behalf of Amazon. When I think of 'gig' drivers, I think of part timers which falls under the Amazon Flex program. Provide your own car, and their policies allow passengers (but passengers are not to interact with customers along with other rules, which I would imagine probably includes not delivering the packages to the door). No doubt the driver was not following policy by having his kid deliver the packages.

I did make a wrong assumption by reading 'van' and picturing someone using their own van, when the poster said 'Amazon Van' which I should have understood was a van with Amazon logo on it rather than a regular van and it being assumed it's Amazon because they were delivering packages.

The obnoxious part is I know a few of you need me to spell out that these were brown skin people in a white neighborhood before it “clicks” since it didn’t on the first pass.

And how would anyone know any of this from what you first posted, and why does it matter? I doubt there are different time standards or bonuses if the driver was white or depends on the racial makeup of the neighborhood being delivered to. I can tell you there are plenty of white 'gig' drivers.

The driver using his kid was the driver's choice. We don't know if he had to use the kid to 'just break even', was already making a profit and wanted more bonus, the kid volunteered instead of being bored, or the driver just wanted to speed things up to get done earlier so he can go home and play more Civ People break policies all the time in all kinds of industries until they are caught or something bad happens and then inevitably fired. It's not UPS policy to throw packages in a ditch rather than deliver them, but one driver did it anyways....

 

[Lexicus]

Had to look up what DSP means...oh, the companies who hire several drivers (delivery service providers) to deliver on behalf of Amazon. When I think of 'gig' drivers, I think of part timers which falls under the Amazon Flex program. Provide your own car, and their policies allow passengers (but passengers are not to interact with customers along with other rules, which I would imagine probably includes not delivering the packages to the door). No doubt the driver was not following policy by having his kid deliver the packages.

I did make a wrong assumption by reading 'van' and picturing someone using their own van, when the poster said 'Amazon Van' which I should have understood was a van with Amazon logo on it rather than a regular van and it being assumed it's Amazon because they were delivering packages.



And how would anyone know any of this from what you first posted, and why does it matter? I doubt there are different time standards or bonuses if the driver was white or depends on the racial makeup of the neighborhood being delivered to. I can tell you there are plenty of white 'gig' drivers.

The driver using his kid was the driver's choice. We don't know if he had to use the kid to 'just break even', was already making a profit and wanted more bonus, the kid volunteered instead of being bored, or the driver just wanted to speed things up to get done earlier so he can go home and play more Civ People break policies all the time in all kinds of industries until they are caught or something bad happens and then inevitably fired. It's not UPS policy to throw packages in a ditch rather than deliver them, but one driver did it anyways....

Are you getting paid to simp for Amazon this hard lol

 

[Bamspeedy]

Don't misunderstand, I don't like the 'gig' jobs. It is a bad model and would not recommend. 'Gig' drivers are (generally) less professional, whether it's Amazon Flex or Door Dash. Noticed uptick in getting my neighbors packages by mistake since 'gig' jobs became more popular. Read lots of bad stuff about 'gig' drivers who deliver for Walmart.

 

[Lexicus]

Don't misunderstand, I don't like the 'gig' jobs. It is a bad model and would not recommend. 'Gig' drivers are (generally) less professional, whether it's Amazon Flex or Door Dash. Noticed uptick in getting my neighbors packages by mistake since 'gig' jobs became more popular. Read lots of bad stuff about 'gig' drivers who deliver for Walmart.

So, you agree that gig work in general is oppressive and exploitative. That's good. This driver is almost certainly being exploited regardless of the specific details that led to the scene Hygro witnessed.

The driver using his kid was the driver's choice. We don't know if he had to use the kid to 'just break even', was already making a profit and wanted more bonus, the kid volunteered instead of being bored, or the driver just wanted to speed things up to get done earlier so he can go home and play more Civ People break policies all the time in all kinds of industries until they are caught or something bad happens and then inevitably fired. It's not UPS policy to throw packages in a ditch rather than deliver them, but one driver did it anyways....

There are plenty of "policies" that exist solely to give an employer coverage in the event that someone litigates a policy violation which the company intentionally caused to happen with their other, more stringently enforced policies (e.g. a warehouse might have a rule about handling so many heavy loads in a certain amount of time, a rule sure to be broken since the quotas require lifting heavy loads at a higher rate). This happens all the time with international supply chains, and massive labor and human-rights abuses which technically violate the "policies" of many US companies are not merely tolerated but caused by the companies' other behavior (e.g. Apple will claim it is against policy to hire suppliers who violate human rights, but in practice they will pay the lowest prices they can for components so all the suppliers are forced to treat their workers like garbage...remember the infamous anti-suicide nets?).

 

[Hygro]

We humans have a tendency to fill in details, such as motives and emotional states, to fit our own biases. We don't know why this driver had their child with them, and we'll never hear the whole story.

Sure, but none of the answers are "Amazon is good for wages."

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

There's nothing immoral about buying from Amazon. Times change and economies evolve. Yes, those little businesses are going under, but the same kind of thing happened during the Industrial Revolution. We live in a global economy now, and frankly "mom & pop" retailers simply don't have the logistical capabilities to meet consumer needs. Local business won't survive using a 20th-century approach, they need to adapt and follow consumer needs. You've still got a huge need for locally-run service industries.

I'm excited you get to go shoes and clothes shopping!

Is this a good thing though? A vast accumulated wealth imbalance is causing societal problems.

 

[Bamspeedy]

So, you agree that gig work in general is oppressive and exploitative.

Funny that the examples I listed for why I don't like them was nothing about the practices being oppressive and exploitive on the driver, but about the level of service. Amazon switching to gig drivers from using UPS was because gig drivers were cheaper...with cheaper comes less professionalism. Fault them for choosing to hire gig drivers instead of UPS, oh definitely.

I do think the advertised wages of drivers (or claims of making $25-$30+/hour) are misleading if you have to use your own vehicle, between paying gas, the wear and tear on your vehicle, having to pay all your own FICA taxes as independently employed, you're probably not better off than someone making $15-$18 anywhere else where you don't have to use your own vehicle.

Do not know how achievable it is to get the bonuses or meet time standards. They very well could be unrealistic and unachievable, I don't know. But, I also know how journalists can find the worst examples. In my own experiences I know warehouse work can be hard work, time standards can be hard to meet. I don't need a journalist interviewing a 300 pound man to tell me the job is hard, that 300 pound man is going to have a hard time doing almost any kind of job.

I know all about time standards and not a fan, as there will always be a constant struggle between what is a fair standard and what is 'too hard', and whether the 'engineer' who figured out the time standards really know what they are doing or accounted for all the potential hurdles during a task.

There are plenty of "policies" that exist solely to give an employer coverage in the event that someone litigates a policy violation which the company intentionally caused to happen with their other, more stringently enforced policies (e.g. a warehouse might have a rule about handling so many heavy loads in a certain amount of time, a rule sure to be broken since the quotas require lifting heavy loads at a higher rate). This happens all the time with international supply chains, and massive labor and human-rights abuses which technically violate the "policies" of many US companies are not merely tolerated but caused by the companies' other behavior (e.g. Apple will claim it is against policy to hire suppliers who violate human rights, but in practice they will pay the lowest prices they can for components so all the suppliers are forced to treat their workers like garbage...remember the infamous anti-suicide nets?).

If their 'work culture' encouraged people to use their kids to deliver the packages for them, you'd think you'd see these incidents more often. Single examples are not evidence. The UPS driver dumping packages in a ditch is not an example of "UPS drivers are over worked they have to dump packages to save time/catch up", no it was, as the driver admitted, he was lazy and just didn't want to deliver them.

I wonder how often improper transportation of kids (them not putting on seatbelt when vehicle is in motion, leaving sliding door of minivan open when driving very short distance, etc) happens when a parent is driving their kid on the morning newspaper route, we just don't see it because it's done when it's still dark out. The newspaper didn't do nothing to encourage it, that decision is solely on the driver.

 

[Hygro]

Never seen a kid in a newspaper delivery. I made a habit of walking during the delivery times for a few years.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Is that a thing of the past, or is it only small, rural towns now? When I was a kid, most newspaper delivery people were teens.