Yeah, there's nothingbwrong with discussing what we think they could do better. And nothing wrong if you don't want to shop there.
Ethics of Amazon
- Thread starter yung.carl.jung
- Start date
lol, are we getting into "The Good Place" territory? If you go down that route, there is nowhere you can shop or anything you can do that isn't morally dubious, and we're all going to hell.
Yeah, there are some companies I refuse to give my money to: for example Hobby Lobby because of their insurance outlook, or Chick-fil-A because the owners sponsor anti-LGBTQ hate groups, etc. That's a personal choice.
But it's a scale, not a binary. It's not "morally dubious or not", it's "working out what is the least dubious, if it is within our power". For example, I'm not going to begrudge anyone who shops at Amazon because they can't afford not to, because Amazon's business model involves undercutting on price to shut out competition. If you're poor, you really don't have much in the way of choice. I've been there. But if someone (like myself) can afford to (as I can nowadays), I'm definitely going to do everything I can to not rely on Amazon, and I'm also going to convince others who can afford to to shop elsewhere.
Why shouldn't I? What separates my own choice (which is acceptable) from convincing others of the same choice (which is apparently not, assuming I'm not misreading anything)? Does this "let the other person be, and allow them to keep doing what they're doing" apply to other subjects (like encouraging people to get vaccinated)?
Why shouldn't I? What separates my own choice (which is acceptable) from convincing others of the same choice (which is apparently not, assuming I'm not misreading anything)? Does this "let the other person be, and allow them to keep doing what they're doing" apply to other subjects (like encouraging people to get vaccinated)?
This concern is due to not understanding economies of scale. If you're a business you don't have to sell with Amazon, but doing so expands your market exponentially. Yes, your sales per unit goes down, but your total margins go up dramatically. This is the type of whining from merchants who don't have any economics education that is so annoying. New companies are able to exist because Amazon exists, and can reach customers they never could have on their own. It provides huge services for marketing and logistics, and yes there is a cost for that but also incredible benefit.
Right, because that is how economics works and how applying a small principle to the slippery scale should be done.
Naw, we are. That's what high levels of personal ownership plus margins does.
Can't figure out if this is merely the hit dog yelping, but I've always said that it matters what we do with the savings and what is being purchased.
Imagine you're a business, and locally you can sell 100 widgets a day for $10 each, at a cost of $7 per widget. You're making a total of $300 profit per day. Amazon comes in, and suddenly you can sell 1,000 of the same widgets but for $8 each, at the same cost. Your daily profit is now $1,000 and you're making more than 3x as much money, even though they forced you to lower your price.
This is economies of scale.
Additionally, as you're able to increase output you're able to get a better per-unit cost, so you're making even more money.
But if you only focus on the sell price dropping by 20%, you're going to get upset by a nonexistent problem.
This is economies of scale.
Additionally, as you're able to increase output you're able to get a better per-unit cost, so you're making even more money.
But if you only focus on the sell price dropping by 20%, you're going to get upset by a nonexistent problem.
Can't tell if you're just really far down the rabbit hole on this one ...
Right, because I began our conversation with "you want a million unemployed people!". Oh wait, here's another slippery slope argument.
It's turtles all the way down, but you can still stack the turtles. We live in an imperfect world, but as Eleanor says you gotta try. If you pulled out "there's no point trying" from the Good Place ... I just don't know.
I'm not sure "what you do with the savings and what you purchase matters" is controversial.
Amazon has three problems that I have discussed:
It's is directly concentrating wealth into the hands of the very richest person. I think subsidizing that isn't a good idea. If you do, it depends on what you do with your savings. Lobbying is fungible.
The footprint generated by its business model is ginormous, and aggravated by getting a multi-tonne vehicle to deliver small units of consumer value. Footprint is fungible, so it depends on what you do with the savings. Subsidizing this with a Prime subscription (for streaming) seems unwise.
It assists in the erosion of your local economy. Granted, a lot of this is due to innovations and efficiencies. I definitely cannot balance that against making the world's richest man even richer.
Of course, with all three of the above, what you purchase matters. But it always will.
Now, I still can't tell if you're taking this personally. Don't fret: I also chastise a host of other perceived evils. From hedonistic consumption of beef and pork to thinking it's unfair that drunk people can't legally consent.
It's turtles all the way down, but you can still stack the turtles. We live in an imperfect world, but as Eleanor says you gotta try. If you pulled out "there's no point trying" from the Good Place ... I just don't know.
I'm not sure "what you do with the savings and what you purchase matters" is controversial.
Amazon has three problems that I have discussed:
It's is directly concentrating wealth into the hands of the very richest person. I think subsidizing that isn't a good idea. If you do, it depends on what you do with your savings. Lobbying is fungible.
The footprint generated by its business model is ginormous, and aggravated by getting a multi-tonne vehicle to deliver small units of consumer value. Footprint is fungible, so it depends on what you do with the savings. Subsidizing this with a Prime subscription (for streaming) seems unwise.
It assists in the erosion of your local economy. Granted, a lot of this is due to innovations and efficiencies. I definitely cannot balance that against making the world's richest man even richer.
Of course, with all three of the above, what you purchase matters. But it always will.
Now, I still can't tell if you're taking this personally. Don't fret: I also chastise a host of other perceived evils. From hedonistic consumption of beef and pork to thinking it's unfair that drunk people can't legally consent.
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What do you think will happen if no one shops at Amazon? Do you believe that Jeff Bezos would be the only person to lose money?
I do believe we need a more equitable taxation system, but that's another conversation. I have no personal issue with Jeff profiting from his company. He is not my enemy and I don't base my life decisions around trying to stick it to him.
Amazon employs more than a million people. They provide a means for many new businesses to reach customers. Their innovations make things so much easier for customers and improve quality of life dramatically.
I have no problem with you not wanting to shop there. Again though, that's a personal decision you make and has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics. Calling it so is nothing more than virtue signalling.
I do believe we need a more equitable taxation system, but that's another conversation. I have no personal issue with Jeff profiting from his company. He is not my enemy and I don't base my life decisions around trying to stick it to him.
Amazon employs more than a million people. They provide a means for many new businesses to reach customers. Their innovations make things so much easier for customers and improve quality of life dramatically.
I have no problem with you not wanting to shop there. Again though, that's a personal decision you make and has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics. Calling it so is nothing more than virtue signalling.
bernie14
Filter Manipulator
Zardnaar
Deity
Yet I'm sure you would be bleating about boycotting a company that treated women bad.
Anyone know how Amazon treats women BTW?
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1033...probe-of-amazons-approach-to-pregnant-workers
From last September.
Zardnaar
Deity
It's all good though because I get cheap stuff and they get to exploit erm employ a million people doing it.
Most of whom would likely be employed anyway with better conditions.
This is the point of investigations. When a company has more than a million employees all over the place, there are things that are going to go wrong somewhere and need to be fixed. A quote from the linked article:
"Ensuring the health and well-being of our employees is one of our greatest responsibilities," Nantel said, noting Amazon's maternity-related benefits. "We'll keep listening to our teams and investigating any concerns they raise, and if we find that we got something wrong, we'll work hard to make it right."
I fully support Congress' investigation and I fully support actions Amazon takes to fix problems that are discovered.
Amazon currently gives 20 weeks of fully paid parental leave. I completely support that policy (my company, which is great, only gives 16, plus 6 extra weeks if medically needed) This is something "mom and pop" businesses don't do.
"Ensuring the health and well-being of our employees is one of our greatest responsibilities," Nantel said, noting Amazon's maternity-related benefits. "We'll keep listening to our teams and investigating any concerns they raise, and if we find that we got something wrong, we'll work hard to make it right."
I fully support Congress' investigation and I fully support actions Amazon takes to fix problems that are discovered.
Amazon currently gives 20 weeks of fully paid parental leave. I completely support that policy (my company, which is great, only gives 16, plus 6 extra weeks if medically needed) This is something "mom and pop" businesses don't do.
Not about amazon, but you know globally that is really little. I think in the UK the minimum is 6 months paid and 6 months unpaid, and everyone I know who has taken it has had up to 14 months paid if they want.
https://www.gov.uk/employers-maternity-pay-leave
I could not live on a weekly pay of $200.
But anyway, this has nothing to do with Amazon. The point is though is that working for Amazon is a heck of a lot better than working for some small local business.
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
Which? By their very nature, small businesses are going to be all over the spectrum in terms of wages, benefits, employer relations, so you're comparing apples to oranges.
A more useful comparison would be other e-commerce sites.
A more useful comparison would be other e-commerce sites.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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If you're a business and sell though amazon, you will soon have your margins crushed. And become totally dependent on them nevertheless. They're very successful predators, guess who has been the prey.
Not really, it depends on what you do with the savings you get by shopping at Amazon. It's the same conversation. Using Amazon creates a savings, how you use that savings is then going to determine the ethical consequences of using Amazon in the first place. A typical Westerner increases their non-sustainable consumption.
I don't think you're using 'virtue signalling' (or even 'ethics') correctly. What someone does what those savings would be the actual ethical decision (and the actual purchase, obviously). Now, given that there are infinite evils, I'm loathe to chastise someone's choice for which evil they battle, but the decisions around those savings still matter.
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Ajidica
High Quality Person
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Is it that much of a blanket statement though? Purely anecdotally, I've bought some RPGs where the publisher/developer's purchase link on their website took me right to the Amazon page, and they said in a blogpost it was cheaper to go to Amazon than try and handle an internet marketplace and payment processor themselves.
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