European Migration Crisis (off-topic discussion from Arab Spring thread)

[AmazonQueen]

this does not strike me as an accurate description of history relative to the current discussion of migration. the incentive, means, and treatment of migrants was completely different.

what do you think would happen if 10,000 of the poorest people from mali tried to migrate to the UK in 1100 ad? a large % of them would die trying, much larger than today. that's already a big disincentive, since unless you're basically toast where you are, going >50% odds to die isn't a bet people will generally take. however, it's not like you'd be in good shape if you made it there either...far from helping you, if the state (or title holder) did anything at all it would likely be quite the opposite of "helping" the migrants. thus, there was also no reason to expect a better life/salvation through massed migration.

similarly, a non-trivial % of that "uncontrolled" immigration involved killing men and then doing marriages with "persuasion by force". that will certainly blend culture, but i doubt anybody here thinks the world would look better if this were still a thing.

beyond that, you more or less had to assimilate given the size of communities, which is not what we observe today.

Don't know, we've never had 10.000 people from Mali try to migrate here ever.
Its certainly true that modern societies are much more able to cope with mass migration, thank you for pointing that out.

Strange how so many Europeans living in America and Australasia are so keen on the idea that non-European immigrants should have to assimilate. Seems a little hypocritical.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well NZ is fairly big on international trade and co-operation people seem to like us. Unlike apartheid era South Africa. Hell I had one Safi tell me they got excited about being able to play some country at ping pong because no one really wanted to associate with SA.

Besides we never know one day we might be the refugees. We have one if the largest super volcanoes in the world here or the faultline in the Alps could go at any moment.

If need be hopefully Australia or whoever can take some in. Or vice versa if they need it.

You never know.

 

[Gorbles]

But he called it a Nazi party. It is not a Nazi party.

Sure it is. It's far-right and fascistic, hates a bunch of minorities, including Jewish folk. Since you're obviously not from around here because you have no idea what the UK is actually like, I don't think you'd assimilate well enough

No, I was making a point. Me blasting Steve's music would be obnoxiously ostentatious, the way Muslims blasting Call to Prayer or dressing Islamic in the west is.

What point were you making? Your point about Muslims is completely made-up, and a point in favour of a free society is people can dress how they see fit.

 

[Angst]

we have quarter-hourly church bells in denmark and people don't care. call to prayer has nothing to do with sound and everything to do with him not liking muslims

also paul believes dogs are worth more than people so

 

[GenMarshall]

Also, keep in mind that had the Confederacy won, they likely would have been an ally to South Africa, and helped to reduce the negative impact of sanctions against us. So, it's about self-interest for me. It's called Realpolitik.

This just has Turtledove written all over it that it would make Cody of Alternate History Hub roll his eyes at the rediculousness of this scenario.

But he called it a Nazi party. It is not a Nazi party.

The lore on said party says otherwise, and that is far as we’re going to go down that rabbit hole.
@Gorbles has already commented on that and that dumpster stays smothered and not reignited.

I believe the word you are looking for here is benefit. I am one of the few people who still wears a mask when I am out and about.

You don’t get it do you. That is not what I am talking about. I am not talking about the stupid COVID Mask. Here let me post up what I am talking about because you clearly fail to understand idioms:

“(one's) mask slips
One's true personality, agenda, or motivation has been revealed, which stands in contrast to what was presented to other people.”

I believe the word you are looking for here is succumbing.

Ok Spelling Nazi . The ability for you to “correct” other people’s spelling does not make you smarter nor superior to everyone else. It makes you look like demeaning and arrogant person.

And you wonder why people are not only getting pissed at your bigoted hot takes but are also getting pissed at your demeaning and arrogant attitude .

Doomed Moral Victor - TVTropes

I’m sure you’ll do great in KKK and Confederacy Lost Cause conventions.

Well, seeing as my ancestors were from Europe centuries ago, and my culture is derived from European cultures, I know a great deal.

You know nothing, John Snow.

I am not an antisemite. The key component of Nazi ideology was antisemitism.

I am not a Nazi, because I am not an antisemite.

I do not believe you. The mask has already fallen off (Again, not the stupid COVID mask, refer to the reply I gave you when you arrogantly told me “the word I’m looking for”) and I have zero benifit of the doubts to give.

Is it too hard to admit that Julius Malema is an alt-left black supremacist and black nationalist demagogue?

Full stop. I do not know nor care who Julius Malema is as this is the first I heard of him from your trail of screeds.

Alt-Left!? You must be really deep into the vines of the Alt-Right rabbit hole.

While your country (assuming you're American) was sanctioning South Africa,…

Full stop, it was not just the Americans that sanctioned South Africa for apartheid and it only happened in recent history. It was an international effort that started in 1962 with UN Resolution 1761. The United States and the UK were reluctant up until the 1980s to support the international led sanctions against apartheid South Africa because of Cold War politics with South Africa being nominally an anti-communist state. Again, it was an international led effort, if you bothered to look into it.

Afrikaans is not a dialect of Dutch any more than Dutch is a dialect of German.

Wikipedia begs to differ.

Afrikaans (UK: /ˌæfrɪˈkɑːns/, US: /ˌɑːf-/, meaning 'African')[4][5] is a West Germanic language that evolved in the Dutch Cape Colony from the Dutch vernacular[6][7] of Holland proper (i.e., the Hollandic dialect)

We are an ethnic group, and we deserve self-determination. The Amish and the Mennonites also have a "branch derivative" of Protestantism.

Unlike Afrikaners, the Amish and the Mennonites are an ethnoreligious group. Again, Afrikaners will never be an ethnoreligious group no matter how much you stomp your feet on the ground like a two year old.

I am sitting in my house, not in a cafe.

Once again, the idioms just fly right over your head per usual, and this time it’s with an analogy. What I’m telling you is that you’re in a public place vomiting Alt-Right screeds while taking a crap on the floor.

I don't like these three.

I find that really hard to believe since you gravitate towards fascist ethno nationalistic states.

This one was pretty good.

Not a huge suprise you’d favor a fascist regime.

You can coexist in harmony, but ultimately, you are not members of the same ethnos.

It’s very much obvious that you have a huge hang up over ethnicities. Which is really not my point when I said that.

I don't worship at the altar of FREEDUMB, though believe in freedom, I care more about societal stability and demographic protectionism than I do about FREEDUMB freedom.

I believe the word you are looking for is freedom. Given that you’re a white nationalist authoritarian fascist. It’s no surprise that freedom is kryptonite to you.

If the shoe was on the other foot, they wouldn't take us in. Remember what Muslims did to European immigrants in Algeria?

So, seeing as they would turn us away from their homelands if the shoe were on the other foot, I don't feel bad about leaving them to their fate. They'd have done the same to us, if we'd let them have their chance.

This really just showcase your lack of empathy for migrants and refugees who flee from oppressive regimes, environmental devastation, and/or lack of opportunities.

If you’re really afraid of migrants are going to enact revenge upon you for past deeds, maybe it’s something you should think about when you continue to act bigoted towards groups you do not like and, you know, stop being bigoted towards them and not oppress them!

They can instead seek refuge in nations that have a similar culture, or, they can man up and stay and fight for their homeland, like we did at Blood River in 1838.

Unlike you, who have the privilege of owning firearms. The refugees in question are individuals and/or families that are fleeing their country from an oppressive regime with nothing but the clothes on their backs and whatever they can carry. Seeking refuge in nations with similar culture would be out of the question as the other nation in question may hold sympathies or even be in alliance with the oppressive regime.

The UN Human Rights Council was led by…

Point….YET AGAIN….flies over Uncle Paul’s head.

The article where I read that is from a extremely right-wing site, I don't think I'm allowed to link to those kinds of sites on this forum.

Well why am I not supprised at this revelation. Just proves my point further that you’re eather an alt-righter who listens to alt-right demagogue or you yourself are an alt-right demagogue.

We wouldn't go to some country that shares nothing in common with us culturally. Look at the countries most Afrikaners have migrated to, other countries with a Protestant, Germanic majority.

“Oh no!! My fellow Boers are abandoning our glorious superior realm, whatever shall we do?!”

The only hang up you have are that these Afrikaners have their own free will and can do, to your shock and horror, as they freely chose. They are free to convert to Lutheraism, Anglican, or “GASP” Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxy. They are not bound to your will of white Afrikaner supremacy.

Also, unless you’ve failed to read the memo: Afrikaner Calvinism IS Protestantism!!!

I prefer "flawed".

No. disgusting and abhorrent is an apt description of the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Obviously, I'm not happy with the way this played out, assuming you're retelling this story accurately.

Of course you’re not happy with the way that it’s played out. You hate other people’s cultures and rather have them be forced assimilated to conform or else. Oh and the icing on the cake is that you’re not happy about it because the woman has the freedom to wear her niqab to her citizenship ceremony.

Dressing in the manner of the foundational stock of the country.

Cultures that are native to Europe, and their descendants.

The more diverse a country becomes, the less of a culture it has.

Again, that’s not how it works.
The opposite happens. The more diverse a country becomes, the more culture it has. I don’t know how many times we have to hammer this into your head.

Wouldn't you rather all the refugees return home, though?

If they’re not hurting anyone, not breaking any laws and are productive members of society in the country they migrated to. Why should they move?

The only conclusion I can gather is that the presence of said migrant/refugees is so triggering to your sensibilities of a pure European culture set by your definition and disrupting the purity of having an all white demographic. You’re only happy when migrants and refugees are “NIMBY” (FYI: NIMBY is an acronym for Not in my Back Yard. I figure I put that in there in case you fail at acronyms like you do with idioms and preemptively stop you from pulling the arrogant “the word you are looking for is” skit), or rather “Not In My White Ethnostate” (Yet ironically don’t mind migrants if they do forcefully assimilate and comply with your fascist agendas).

I didn't think it was very nice.

Given your conduct and attitude on this board. I don’t believe you’re the one to judge what is nice or not.

 

[Lexicus]

So, what is the question here...?

Should migrants be gassed or left to drown?

 

[EnglishEdward]

Full stop. I do not know nor care who Julius Malema is as this is the first I heard of him from your trail of screeds.

Well, wikipedia is working in England.

Julius Malema - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gorbles]

Well, wikipedia is working in England.

Julius Malema - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And? You have to hear of a name to Google it in the first place

Like, what's your aim here?

 

[Cutlass]

At least the Confederates were honest. Thomas Jefferson wrote that "all men are equal" while owning slaves. Also, keep in mind that had the Confederacy won, they likely would have been an ally to South Africa, and helped to reduce the negative impact of sanctions against us. So, it's about self-interest for me. It's called Realpolitik.
Both the Revolutionaries and the Confederates owned slaves. George Washington owned slaves. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. Paul Kruger did NOT own slaves.

The Confederates were partially honest. They admitted that they started a war because they could not tolerate anyone even talking about the possibility of slavery being wrong, and that it maybe should be abolished.

Confederate apologists now aren't anywhere near that honest. They claim that the ACW wasn't about naked greed and evil.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Don't know, we've never had 10.000 people from Mali try to migrate here ever.
Its certainly true that modern societies are much more able to cope with mass migration, thank you for pointing that out.

Strange how so many Europeans living in America and Australasia are so keen on the idea that non-European immigrants should have to assimilate. Seems a little hypocritical.

the reverse is true too. modern technology makes mass migration possible, at all.

if you want a very rough estimate of how it would have looked if people tried in the historical times you're trying to use as a reference to inform modern policy, consider the casualties of just the shipping in the atlantic slave trade.

Strange how so many Europeans living in America and Australasia are so keen on the idea that non-European immigrants should have to assimilate. Seems a little hypocritical.

it is the standard expectation of a country for people who go there to adapt to the country as it is. that culture is part of why people want to go there, a big part.

a country/area that gets militarily conquered isn't there anymore, thus different expectations.

 

[Lexicus]

If Nazi Germany never existed the Confederacy would probably represent the height of evil in all of human history.

 

[Verbose]

if you want a very rough estimate of how it would have looked if people tried in the historical times you're trying to use as a reference to inform modern policy, consider the casualties of just the shipping in the atlantic slave trade.

That's misleadingly "rough". It is quite a difference what kind of outcome was had with enslaved unwilling "migrants" like that, and voluntary migrants who want to make the trip, are not brutalized per se, have resources of their own, and do not have to be forced – who frankly descended on the New World in the millions already in the 19th c.

There's quite a literature on the subject, things like this – about 99% "survival rate":

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2120706

And all mass-migration in the 19th c. wasn't to the New World. Everyone knows about the Sicilians coming to the US around 1900 ("Godfather" movies etc). Fewer are aware they also made it huge numbers to fx Brazil. Even fewer tend to be aware that half a century before the Sicilians, already the north Italians migrated 2 million strong to the eastern Mediterranean.

Generally mass-migration is not some kind of contemporary exceptions. The 19th c. was packed with it. No passports and people migrated in the millions. It only ended in the 20th c. as borders went up, and were manned, after WWI.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Of course you’re not happy with the way that it’s played out. You hate other people’s cultures and rather have them be forced assimilated to conform or else. Oh and the icing on the cake is that you’re not happy about it because the woman has the freedom to wear her niqab to her citizenship ceremony.

Sorry to piggyback on your post, but the one I meant to reply to directly seems to have vanished.

As I recall, an opinion was expressed by my opponent that Justin winning the 2015 election as an indirect result of a Muslim woman going to court for her Charter right to wear a niqab at her citizenship ceremony was a bad thing.

My question is: Why should this matter to anyone in South Africa? I'm not personally fond of niqabs for the reasons stated, but I'm also a huge fan of the Charter because it means that I, as an atheist and disabled person, have protections I didn't have before in pre-Charter days. The bonus that resulted from all this is that this woman inadvertently helped to put an end to the Dark Decade that was Stephen Harper running the country.

I'm talking about someone who deliberately appointed science-deniers to cabinet (think YEC in the portfolio pertaining to fossil fuels - how's that for a mindcrogglingly weird combination?), literally threw the contents of an environment library in a dumpster and destroyed it, deliberately revised the election laws to make it harder for voters in the 5 most vulnerable demographics to vote (seniors, indigenous, students, disabled, homeless) because we tend to not vote for any brand of Conservative, and for the icing on the cake, never won a single one of his so-called federal election 'victories' without cheating in some way.

The opposite happens. The more diverse a country becomes, the more culture it has. I don’t know how many times we have to hammer this into your head.

Absolutely. One of the things that most newcomers to Canada say they like is that there are people from all over the world here (even from South Africa!) and we love celebrating each others' cultures (the good parts, of course; we don't celebrate any bad baggage some individuals might have brought along).

I actually feel sorry for someone who is so laser-focused on a monocultural existence that they can't enjoy music, dancing, food, and other interesting parts of the many ethnicities that make up this country.

Wouldn't you rather all the refugees return home, though?

I do have to be honest and admit that when we took in that huge number of Syrians several years ago, I was concerned about queue-jumping. My dad was on waitlists for medical reasons and the possibility that someone newly-arrived could jump in front due to some government program didn't sit well. It certainly did not sit well with low-income and homeless Canadians to see refugees move to the front of the line for housing when there were Canadians who had been waitlisted for years. It was really annoying when one of the refugees complained about the apartment that was found for his family - it didn't have a private laundry room. My thought at the time was "you ungrateful <censored> - just be glad to have an apartment, since affordable ones don't grow on trees. And almost nobody gets private laundry facilities". (I have to share with 19 other units on this floor, for example)

Fast-forward... my dad died in 2019, so he's not waitlisted anymore. Some Syrians left. Most stayed. Some have their citizenship and have become productive Canadians and are grateful to be here.

Some ended up in this building. The only problem I ever had with refugees here was when they'd let their kids run around and make a lot of noise. I ended up explaining to the mother that letting kids run around right over someone else's living room was not good; it was being a bad neighbor (no carpets means sound carries much more than otherwise). Kids should run around outside, at a playground. Turns out she didn't know how to get to the playgrounds, and the conversation meandered around to me offering to teach her how to use the bus system. By the time our conversation was winding down, she said she was glad I'd come to talk to her - I was the only Canadian woman who had, so far.

You know what would have happened if not for Canada's policy on immigration? I'd likely be blind. It was an eye surgeon from somewhere in Eastern Europe, who came to Canada however many years ago, who did the surgeries on my eyes so I can see now. I get an annual follow-up check every fall; my next appointment is next week. And while he is not the only surgeon around, he has the reputation of being the best.

Given your conduct and attitude on this board. I don’t believe you’re the one to judge what is nice or not.

I'm not sure I recall what he was saying wasn't nice. But I agree with your assessment, GenMarshall.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Thread closed for review.