Evidence for creationism

[Smidlee]

A cult which is open to all if you study the field in depth...

Which I do. Like I mention I read scientist commenting on the fact how little effect natural selection has in reality. It's the same with the article I posted which shows lab studies so far show sexual creatures resisting evolution. Again it seems natural selection can't detect these "small" step required by ToE for all the neutral mutation in the sea of genetic drift. These studies were done of those who believed in ToE and were surprised at the results.(or the lack of results)

All cults can be examined by the outsiders but the "in" group see themselves as the only ones who can determine the "truth"

 

[Tani Coyote]

So, an omnicient God benevolence is so great that he lets some kind of evil figurehead tempts his supposedly beloved children into sin.

1. Depends if Satan is indeed evil, or if he's an agent of God, depending on some beliefs.

2. Free will. God wouldn't be respecting free will if he didn't let evil have its hand too, since he wouldn't be giving us the real power to choose. You may as well not have the ability to decide what to eat if you're only given the same thing for each meal.

3. A test of faith. By allowing an evil being to tempt us towards sin and evil, God is testing each individual person's faith and loyalty to him. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if some crafty parents ask someone to tempt their kid away from them on occasion, to test the child's respect for their authority.

And the rest is just up to part - omniscient God that isn't omniscient

Well, the future would be predetermined if God knew the exact future. Him knowing all the possible futures is more in line with the idea that the future isn't written, but is instead something that could easily change, given that it is the combined actions of all life on Earth. As an extension, this concept of his omniscience is more in line with free will.

The past has already happened, so God would know that without complication; the present already is, so likewise. But the future has not, and so God knows only the possible futures, and probably would try to steer us in the direction of the favorable futures. ...Of course, we are free to disregard his advice.

perfect being creating/letting create evil, and so on.

God is all about choice. Therefore, he must allow evil to exist, or otherwise, he's not giving us choices. Just as he lets humans believe in him or reject him.

---

And I'm saying this all as a non-religious person.

 

[Bill3000]

Where is life supposed to get its energy from without the weak nuclear force?

The weak nuclear force is very necessary for life (at least for life as we know it).

Eh, if it stopped this second, we'd have like three million year or so, in contrast to the instant destruction if EM or the strong nuclear interaction stopped.

 

[GoodGame]

Is there any correlation (positive or otherwise) between quality of thought processes and belief in Creationism?

I wonder what a deconstruction would yield of the contributions in this thread?

I humbly submit it might be better to have faith in the outcome, than to actually look at the evidence.

How would you measure quality of thought processes in an objective way?

 

[emzie]

time itself is not enough, it take planning to come out ahead.

No really, you're not comprehending the time scales involved. Let's use your numbers, give a 50.5 survival / 49.5 death coin flip. Take your survivors and reproduce from that population. And then take those survivors and reproduce from that population.

You're assigning to chance that 50.5% individual will die anyway, despite the advantage it has. That's very well possible. Here's where time scales come into the picture. Mutations are rare, of course, but spread over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, your population is correspondingly huge. You're not just looking at all the, say, squirrels alive today. You're looking at how many squirrels have been alive in the last hundred thousand years (each of whom had a chance, small, to acquire a mutation when its parents formed their sex cells).

As far as only the "IN" group are the only ones who are allowed to comment on the subject ,this is nothing but a cult.

Going back to my example, it's no more a cult than no one taking my views on string theory or the chances for a unification theory seriously. You can have opinions on things, but your voice shouldn't carry weight without an educational backing in what you're saying. Physics doesn't lend itself to a mastery of biology, no matter what some physicists think.

 

[Traitorfish]

There is more to life than science. Science is not my religion.

Science (plural sciences)

Noun

1. A particular discipline or branch of learning, especially one dealing with measurable or systematic principles rather than intuition or natural ability.

2. (archaic) Knowledge gained through study or practice; mastery of a particular discipline or area.

3. (now only theology) The fact of knowing something; knowledge or understanding of a truth.

4. The collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific method; the sum of knowledge gained from such methods and discipline. [from 18th c.]

Don't see the word "religion" in there anywhere...

 

[Smidlee]

No really, you're not comprehending the time scales involved. Let's use your numbers, give a 50.5 survival / 49.5 death coin flip. Take your survivors and reproduce from that population. And then take those survivors and reproduce from that population.

You're assigning to chance that 50.5% individual will die anyway, despite the advantage it has. That's very well possible. Here's where time scales come into the picture. Mutations are rare, of course, but spread over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, your population is correspondingly huge. You're not just looking at all the, say, squirrels alive today. You're looking at how many squirrels have been alive in the last hundred thousand years (each of whom had a chance, small, to acquire a mutation when its parents formed their sex cells).

This is also a serious problem as you need a huge population to help find these rare small beneficial steps yet lab studies so far has shown these rare mutations doesn't become fit in the population in sexual creatures. (the lab is more ideal for evolution than raw nature yet still has serious problems) These beneficial steps are lost though the multitude of neutral mutation in the sea of genetic drifts.
So even if my son which happen to some beneficial mutation the chance of this mutation to become fit in the population is close to zero. (they even have trouble for bacteria mutations become fit on a large scale.) Even if he did have offspring over time this beneficial mutation will be deluded more over time long before the next beneficial step can be found. Also my son offspring could pick up harmful mutation along the way which would cancel out the beneficial one or worst making them less fit.
Just like you can win with 50.5 % a few time in a row then begin losing badly leading to bankruptcy. ( does evolution even have that good of odds is another debate. there a lot that can go wrong)
You can continue to claim Father Time can some how address these issues yet this is still based on faith. With enough time is everything possible?

 

[emzie]

With enough time, things become mathematically likely.

 

[Smidlee]

With enough time, things become mathematically likely.

Math along doesn't equal reality. While math is extremely handy you have to found a way to put the math to the test in the real world.

 

[Akka]

I, like you, also believe in other life forms not governed by our known laws of physics.

I do not "believe". It just stands to reason that a universe with different rules would work differently, and that as such life could exist, just working differently - just as I can build a fence with wood or metal, it's still a fence.

the problem with this video like most of these computer programs is when it comes to odds a lot of time the best fit doesn't survive and/or are not obvious at first .

This video is obviously a simplification that nevertheless illustrate beautifully the principle.

If you saw the movie "21" then you know how random events will hide the "fittest" in the crowd. The smart players that learn how to beat the odds said they were in the red for 9 months.(a computer program would see them unfit and remove them) That's because even if you have a 1% advantage you still have 49.5% chance of losing and at times they lost big. In order to use 1% advantage for a real solid advantage will require long term management. Risk management is how some make their money in the stock market. You may lose here and there but with planning (something natural selection can't do) you can eventually come out ahead just like those who learn how to beat the house.

This is the entire reason why evolution happens on a long timescale, and why the video shows HUNDREDS of generations.
That's the very basis of anything statistical. So in fact, you didn't even get the very beginning of the concept.

1. Depends if Satan is indeed evil, or if he's an agent of God, depending on some beliefs.

If he's an agent, then it means that the "supremely benevolent" god is tempting himself his beloved.
Wow, that sure is very convincing for supreme benevolence.

All the rest still make zero sense. You don't try to trick people you love to see if they will fall.
A supposedly perfect god full of benevolence, create a world based on struggle for life filled with imperfect beings killing each others.
Both are simply contradictory, and it requires more to cover the gaping holes in logic than just some wishful thinking.

 

[Tani Coyote]

If he's an agent, then it means that the "supremely benevolent" god is tempting himself his beloved.

Whether passive or active, this temptation just shows God being willing to respect free will, rather than enslave us all. Free will is important, even if it would make more sense to screw it and just obliterate evil altogether.

God isn't an idiot, he merely has a strong sense of ethics that prevent him from infringing on the sacred right of free choice.

Wow, that sure is very convincing for supreme benevolence.

He loves us enough to give us a choice, and also provide/allow the vehicles for those choices.

A supposedly perfect god full of benevolence, create a world based on struggle for life filled with imperfect beings killing each others.

He'd interfere with freedom of action if he stepped in all the time.

As for the struggle, it serves as a test of one's moral integrity. Many opportunities to commit evil present themselves... and we can take them, or not. God not only gives the ability to choose, but the choices to choose from.

The key is free will. It all goes back to the protection of this valuable gift.

 

[Trev]

Minor mutations over time is not enough for evolution to work. Instead massive improbable mutations are necessary for life forms to change and to exist in the first place. The ATP synphesis is a very complex miniscule protein motor in every cell that generates energy for the cell. It is totally implausible that mutations could have formed this protein motor and then replicated it in every cell, much too complex for it to be mathematically possible, yet life cannot exist without it. It is the complexity of the inner cell workings that are the best evidence for a designer and therefore for creationism.

 

[Seon]

Here ya go

 

[El_Machinae]

This is so frustrating. I wish these churches wouldn't miss teach biology in order to firm up the faith of their congregations. We need kids to learn proper biology, so that they can help the next generation of biological research. We need more people like Jenner & Borlaug, because there're still a billion people who need cheap medicine and cheap food.

 

[Smidlee]

I do not "believe". It just stands to reason that a universe with different rules would work differently, and that as such life could exist, just working differently - just as I can build a fence with wood or metal, it's still a fence.

You have to believe by faith since the only known physical life known to man requires today's laws of physics. Again a building something out of wood or metal are a lot more stable than known physical life.

This video is obviously a simplification that nevertheless illustrate beautifully the principle.

This is the problem ToE has always been too simple to explain the complexities of life. Also the point of the video was the watch example was a straw man just like your "wooden fence" was a straw man above.

This is the entire reason why evolution happens on a long timescale, and why the video shows HUNDREDS of generations.
That's the very basis of anything statistical. So in fact, you didn't even get the very beginning of the concept.

Again so far studies have not proven time is on evolution side. PC programs are easy to get an outcome since the programmer is aiming at a certain goal. As far as math , the maximum amount of information all life on the planet since the beginning can find in a ramdom process is 1000 bits. While there is no exact way yet to measure the "information" in DNA and proteins there's no doubt they are much larger than 1000 bits. Then trying to get any rare beneficial mutation to become fit in a population makes it even more tough to overcome the odds.

 

[holy king]

if you you take a good look at this planet you will come to the conclusion that it can only be the creation of a gnostic demiurg with a humourous sense of irony.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

God isn't an idiot, he merely has a strong sense of ethics that prevent him from infringing on the sacred right of free choice.

Testing people and torturing them forever if they fail isn't ethical or loving. It's psychotic.

He'd interfere with freedom of action if he stepped in all the time.

Then what, pray tell, of the freedom of all the people in the Bible he "stepped in" for all the time?

The key is free will. It all goes back to the protection of this valuable gift.

Where do you get this idea of god having a fetish for free will. It's not in any scripture I recall. This principle on which you seem to base your theology appears to the outside observer to be entirely made up.

Minor mutations over time is not enough for evolution to work. Instead massive improbable mutations are necessary for life forms to change and to exist in the first place. The ATP synphesis is a very complex miniscule protein motor in every cell that generates energy for the cell. It is totally implausible that mutations could have formed this protein motor and then replicated it in every cell, much too complex for it to be mathematically possible, yet life cannot exist without it. It is the complexity of the inner cell workings that are the best evidence for a designer and therefore for creationism.

If you have actual concrete evidence of the impossibility of evolution, by all means submit it to peer review and claim your Nobel Prize! Or is this statement just n argument from personal incredulity: stating it is impossible simply because you can't or won't understand it.

You have to believe by faith since the only known physical life known to man requires today's laws of physics.

I have explained why this reasoning is fallacious already.

This is the problem ToE has always been too simple to explain the complexities of life. Also the point of the video was the watch example was a straw man just like your "wooden fence" was a straw man above.

Please explain what you believe a straw man argument to be, and why it applies in this case. I do not think you are using the term correctly.

Again so far studies have not proven time is on evolution side. PC programs are easy to get an outcome since the programmer is aiming at a certain goal. As far as math , the maximum amount of information all life on the planet since the beginning can find in a ramdom process is 1000 bits. While there is no exact way yet to measure the "information" in DNA and proteins there's no doubt they are much larger than 1000 bits. Then trying to get any rare beneficial mutation to become fit in a population makes it even more tough to overcome the odds.

I get the distinct impression you're making this crap up. [citation needed]

 

[ParkCungHee]

Math along doesn't equal reality.

Presumably you mean "alone", and presumably this means that we can throw out pretty much all of physics.

 

[emzie]

As far as math , the maximum amount of information all life on the planet since the beginning can find in a ramdom process is 1000 bits. While there is no exact way yet to measure the "information" in DNA and proteins there's no doubt they are much larger than 1000 bits. Then trying to get any rare beneficial mutation to become fit in a population makes it even more tough to overcome the odds.

Er... what? Could you please restate this?

 

[Arakhor]

I particularly like the blind watchmaker video posted earlier, but that's discussing evolutionary theory, not creationism. "God started the Big Bang" theories aside, which is completely unprovable either way, I'm surprised that more YEC evidence hasn't surfaced here.