Evolution versus Creationism

Evolution or Creationism?


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until we figure out what the other laws are and/or how to work with dynamic laws of physics.

I agree that there are things science will never be able to answer, but it'd be silly to 1. draw up boundaries or 2. bring in the supernatural to explain gaps.

I agree that a God of the gaps is a dead end because we may eventually fill in the gaps using science. We don't need boundaries either.

We can't rule out the existence supernatural phenomena just yet. What may be "supernatural" to us maybe what's considered normal elsewhere in this universe or in another time/space dimension.
 
Living cells are an ordered collection of parts are they not? What ordered them?

There is no essential order, I said; we have already seen how chaos can look ordered when you only look at a small part of it. As far as I can recall, they all have th same constituent parts for one very good reason; basically every cell begins life as a cell with the different modes (brain cell, nerve cell etc) inside its 'memory', and it switches them on as required. When a baby is formed, it generates one master cell which clones itself into the different cells; this is why all cells have a nucleus and cytoplasm etc

A snowflake is the result of water molecules forming crystals due to variations in temperature; which is determined by the laws of physics. Where did the laws of physics come from? Did they just happen to emerge?

Yes. You have just hit on the amazing thing of science; the universe as it is is a fluke.
 
I don't get what this has to do with having an ordered universe without God.

The second law, one of the most fundamental ones of the science as we know it states that the universe isn't ordered at all, on the opposite: it's filled with chaos and only becomes more and more disordered.

Read the article or take an advanced science course.
Here's the link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics (kinda the same)

It also explains why and how life, by definition can and will decrease Entropy. The article cites tons of references and links to many theories explaining the relation between how ordered a structure is and life. None of the references or other scientific theories require (or support) a God.
 
As you said; it takes an advanced science course to understand it, so don't be too hard on the guy. I think he gets it now reading the above.
 
Yes, you're right. Sorry for not specifying that. (but doesn't change anything in relation with Murky's argument)

@ Flying pig, I edited it a bit.
 
Life forms at the bottom of the oceans, some just being discovered, are dramatically different in almost all ways than life forms on earth...and they live under dramatically different circumstances than life forms on the surface do, yet they still exist.

Wrong. All life that we have found is based on the exact same format: DNA. Yet another piece of evidence for evolution ;)
 
With the possible exception of some viruses, whose claim to life is debatable, that's correct (they run on RNA, which is a primitive version of DNA)
 
Wrong. All life that we have found is based on the exact same format: DNA. Yet another piece of evidence for evolution ;)

Yes, but that isn't contrary to what I wrote. ;)
 
Who or what created the law of the universe that said that God was in charge?
If God's will is done 100% of the time, who decided that it would be 100%, and not 90%?

I don't think people who believe in God constrain him to the laws of the Universe...does not the creator create the laws?

I don't believe in God so I can't say, but IF someone were to create the Universe it is likely that the person who is the creator is outside the Universe and is not subject to its constraints. Just like a programmer programs a computer program or game. Inside the game, the laws are such, but that doesn't constrain the designer to change, alter, or do whatever he/she would like to do.
 
"which came first the chicken or the egg?" some people cite that as a reason evolution is wrong because it can't explain it, but those people are wrong because evolution CAN explain it
 
"which came first the chicken or the egg?" some people cite that as a reason evolution is wrong because it can't explain it, but those people are wrong because evolution CAN explain it
By default Evolution explains everything. That's the problem.
 
How do you explain an ordered universe without God? I don't mean the theistic God. Without everything falling into place, in what appears to be perfectly ordered, we would not exist.
I don't really, I just don't find "God" to be a sufficient explanation.

No explanation is better then a bad explanation.
 
See, this is why I don't subscribe to “Discover Magazine”.
Ok, so you don't like the popular science press. Why don't you like biocentrism?

That's an interesting philosophy, but I have some problems with it.

We take the observations, but we do not create them. Our subjective theories do not change the fact that there are fundamental laws of the universe. These laws exist regardless of life.

This is my biggest problem with biocentrism as Lanza describes. There is no evidence to suggest that consciousness is a result of anything other than physical laws and the chemical signaling between neurons. There might be, but there is no evidence for it. For the same reason that we must reject the Flying Spaghetti Monster, we must reject this notion in the absence of evidence. Like Intelligent Design, this theory by definition is an untestable hypothesis -- if all reality is subjective to biology, then biology cannot probe reality. However, given the tangible benefits the scientific method has brought to humanity as measured through biology (increased life span, decreased suffering, etc), there has to be something external and fundamental, separate from the biological realm; otherwise, we would not expect to see this correlation. It only works if biology is a reflection of reality, not the other way around.
I don't believe that he says consciousness is other than the physical processes of electrochemical action.

From what I can gather he says that like the observer in quantum experiments which forces a probability to resolve itself, our consciousness continuously forces resolution of probabilities which our brains build into something we can understand. He says that biology is a better tool to undertand this than the others. He is saying that quantum rules apply at the larger scale of living things and are not restricted to quantum things.

He is saying that experience of the world is dependent upon consciousness.

Spoiler :
It has been proven experimentally that when studying subatomic particles, the observer actually alters and determines what is perceived. The work of the observer is hopelessly entangled in that which he is attempting to observe. An electron turns out to be both a particle and a wave. But how and where such a particle will be located remains entirely dependent upon the very act of observation.

Pre-quantum physicists thought that they could determine the trajectory of individual particles with complete certainty. They assumed that the behavior of particles would be predictable if everything were known at the outset—that there was no limit to the accuracy with which they could measure the physical properties of a particle. But Werner Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle showed that this is not the case. You can know either the velocity of a particle or its location but not both. If you know one, you cannot know the other.

The experiments of Heisenberg and Bell call us back to experience itself, the immediacy of the infinite here and now, and shake our unexamined trust in objective reality. But another support for biocentrism is the famous two hole experiment, which demands that we go one step further: Zeno’s arrow doesn’t exist, much less fly, without an observer. The two-hole experiment goes straight to the core of quantum physics. Scientists have discovered that if they “watch” a subatomic particle pass through holes on a barrier, it behaves like a particle: like a tiny bullet, it passes through one or the other holes. But if the scientists do not observe the particle, then it exhibits the behavior of a wave. The two-hole experiment has many versions, but in short: If observed, particles behave like objects; if unobserved, they behave like waves and can go through more than one hole at the same time.

Dubbed quantum weirdness, this wave-particle duality has befuddled scientists for decades. Some of the greatest physicists have described it as impossible to intuit and impossible to formulate into words, and as invalidating common sense and ordinary perception. Science has essentially conceded that quantum physics is incomprehensible outside of complex mathematics. How can quantum physics be so impervious to metaphor, visualization, and language?

If we accept a life-created reality at face value, it becomes simple to understand. The key question is waves of what? Back in 1926, the Nobel laureate physicist Max Born demonstrated that quantum waves are waves of probability, not waves of material as the Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger had theorized. They are statistical predictions. Thus a wave of probability is nothing but a likely outcome. In fact, outside of that idea, the wave is not there. It’s nothing. As John Wheeler, the eminent theoretical physicist, once said, “No phenomenon is a real phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon.”

A particle cannot be thought of as having any definite existence—either duration or a position in space—until we observe it. Until the mind sets the scaffolding of an object in place, an object cannot be thought of as being either here or there. Thus, quantum waves merely define the potential location a particle can occupy. A wave of probability isn’t an event or a phenomenon, it is a description of the likelihood of an event or phenomenon occurring. Nothing happens until the event is actually observed. If you watch it go through the barrier, then the wave function collapses and the particle goes through one hole or the other. If you don’t watch it, then the particle detectors will show that it can go through more than one hole at the same time.
 
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