Facing Mortality

I think you have to prioritise the problems though.
Atm putting research into expanding lifespan will just exacerbate our problems with resources and population.
In the west in the last 70 years we've made massive strides in increasing liveable lifespan which is why my mum at 80 is still golfing, gardening and driving. Thats great but western nations are struggling to deal with ageing populations, with the social problems caused by immigration required to get people of working age, and the rest of the world is struggling to deal with our consumption of resources.
Until we deal with how to provide resources for our society without destroying our planet, work out an acceptable work/life balance when we are living much longer active lives, and work out how we're going to manage with a 3rd world thats not just going to accept our privileged status it should be an either/or situation.

I've prioritized. I'm factoring in my explicit concerns with people's implicit behaviour. I'm not your opponent. People who live their lives unconcerned with the issues you raise (explicitly and implicitly) are your opponent. You're trying to convince me to let my parents die earlier than they need to, and that's a conversation you cannot win. Not because I am stubborn, but because you'll not even convince yourself.

Okay, so at the personal level, you seem to be fine with your mom being still alive. You've not pushed her onto an ice floe, even though her footprint is going to be ten to 100 times that of any starving kid. She's contributing to the problems that you list merely by being alive. Implicitly, you're not okay with her dying earlier in order to provide this resource break that you claim is required. But you'll mention your concerns to someone who thinks that death is an enemy.

That creates some weird coincidence, where her current lifespan is optimal? That doesn't make any sense. It's either too long or too short. And we cannot square the circle, because you devote time and resources to your mom's well-being, even at the cost of these problems you describe. Your implicit behaviour doesn't match your explicit statements. As soon as you spend a single cent or a single second on her health, your position becomes hypocritical. It makes more sense to build a position that isn't hypocritical, but is also moral. Instead of letting your mom die so you can reduce her footprint, create solutions.

After that, it's a function of where to put your next resources. If you're looking to improve things at the bottom, I'm all on your side. But you also seem to think that 100,000 deaths per day are buying you time when it comes to solving the problems that you want solved.

My position is that being in favor of this suffering and death is both a failure of imagination and a lack of devotion to solving the problems you want solved. Environmentalists cannot even convince each other to eat less meat, even if they can convince themselves. But you'll not find many who can convince themselves to let their parents die earlier than they need to.

Please consider, I'm cognizant of the problems you describe. I'm reasonably active on a fair number of them, even. I just don't include mass deaths as acceptable in my solution set.
 
Iirc the decision to self-sacrifice is argued in psychiatry to not be instinctive but rather thought-driven :)

hmmh, I think you are right. those behaviours are probably not instinctive, but rather learned.
 
hmmh, I think you are right. those behaviours are probably not instinctive, but rather learned.
And afaik the nazis even run experiments on this, eg to see if mothers would rather protect their life or their child 's. In one the child was given something that made it cry non stop. In the end the mother choked it to death, supposedly because the wild cries meant the kid might die.
 
I've prioritized. I'm factoring in my explicit concerns with people's implicit behaviour. I'm not your opponent. People who live their lives unconcerned with the issues you raise (explicitly and implicitly) are your opponent. You're trying to convince me to let my parents die earlier than they need to, and that's a conversation you cannot win. Not because I am stubborn, but because you'll not even convince yourself.

Okay, so at the personal level, you seem to be fine with your mom being still alive. You've not pushed her onto an ice floe, even though her footprint is going to be ten to 100 times that of any starving kid. She's contributing to the problems that you list merely by being alive. Implicitly, you're not okay with her dying earlier in order to provide this resource break that you claim is required. But you'll mention your concerns to someone who thinks that death is an enemy.

That creates some weird coincidence, where her current lifespan is optimal? That doesn't make any sense. It's either too long or too short. And we cannot square the circle, because you devote time and resources to your mom's well-being, even at the cost of these problems you describe. Your implicit behaviour doesn't match your explicit statements. As soon as you spend a single cent or a single second on her health, your position becomes hypocritical. It makes more sense to build a position that isn't hypocritical, but is also moral. Instead of letting your mom die so you can reduce her footprint, create solutions.

After that, it's a function of where to put your next resources. If you're looking to improve things at the bottom, I'm all on your side. But you also seem to think that 100,000 deaths per day are buying you time when it comes to solving the problems that you want solved.

My position is that being in favor of this suffering and death is both a failure of imagination and a lack of devotion to solving the problems you want solved. Environmentalists cannot even convince each other to eat less meat, even if they can convince themselves. But you'll not find many who can convince themselves to let their parents die earlier than they need to.

Please consider, I'm cognizant of the problems you describe. I'm reasonably active on a fair number of them, even. I just don't include mass deaths as acceptable in my solution set.

Unless you eliminate death entirely there are always going to be deaths. I'm not sure we could ever cope with the side-effects of immortality. Cetainly we can't whilst we are confined to a single solar system (which is longterm enough for me to worry about).
In the meantime we're still struggling to cope with the effects of the longer lifespans we in the west (and perhaps the elites as well in poorer countries) now have. Not sure how much longer I'll have to live because of them but I do know I'll have to work at least 7 years longer because of them. Medical research and spending is already overwhelmingly focused on problems that affect a relatively small number of privileged people (ie us in the west). Putting research into extending lifespan is just going to make that worse and will mainly be for the benefit of rich people who already enjoy long, healthy ( or if they aren't healthy it is frequently their own fault) lifespans compared to most of the worlds population.

I'm not opposed to medical research that will help more people live full and active lives, although that will drive average lifespan up, but actively seeking to extend lifespan seems perverse when we could be spending the money on helping people live more healthily over their existing lifespan, and extending that to the many in the worlds population who don't currently have the benefits we take for granted in the west seem like better priorities to me, both from a moral pov and in terms of the longterm stability and sustainability issues we face.
 
You guys need to watch altered carbon. Immortality is bad.

I read the books 10 years ago.

Kovaks is a real piece of work.
*snip*

Still not tougher than Stover's Caine.


If I remember right, immortality causes huge problems because the true monsters rise to the top and stay there.
Regular people get 0 chances in life.
 
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As others have noted, this means you are like an "epistemic hostage"!

Just like those others, you missed the point.

Hell isn't "God's threat."

Hell isn't "God's punishment."

The fact that people trying to message about "hell" chose a not quite applicable word and description that was the closest they could get from their limited experience, like the name of the local burning trash dump or 'eternal suffering in a burning fire' is hardly surprising, because they were just people trying to describe the indescribable.

Consider one of the trademark lines from Terminator movies; "Come with me if you want to live." It isn't a threat.

Hell isn't God's punishment, or God's threat; hell is just what happens if you don't go with God. So I choose to go. Seems an easy choice.
 
Look, I'm just responding to what tetley said, I'm not arguing anything about the metaphysics of hell.
 
Look, I'm just responding to what tetley said, I'm not arguing anything about the metaphysics of hell.

Tetley said he's "afraid of hell." Maybe your response left a little more room for something else, but @Synsensa definitely went with "if you are afraid of hell maybe God shouldn't be threatening you with it." I was contemplating the response today while I was working, and your response was most recent so it's the one I quoted when I got home.
 
I don't believe it's possible to interpret tetley's post in any way other than that s/he is afraid of being tortured eternally after s/he dies.

In any case, in a universe where God sets the rules, making it suck so bad to not "go with God" that it is "indescribable" and people have to resort to crude metaphors involving torture and fire and lava to describe it just seems like some sort of sick cruel joke that God is playing on humans.
 
I don't believe it's possible to interpret tetley's post in any way other than that s/he is afraid of being tortured eternally after s/he dies.

In any case, in a universe where God sets the rules, making it suck so bad to not "go with God" that it is "indescribable" and people have to resort to crude metaphors involving torture and fire and lava to describe it just seems like some sort of sick cruel joke that God is playing on humans.

If blaming god is working for you, hang with it.
 
If blaming god is working for you, hang with it.

Shockingly, God is indeed responsible for the conditions the eternal soul must contend with after they pass on from this plane of existence.

This whole "it's not a threat, it's a warning" thing is clever prison talk but pretty much meaningless in a discussion about principles and whether or not a fear-based principle is valued more than a moral-based principle. God creates the game, it can't wash its hands of the responsibility.
 
Who else made Hell if not God? If Satan made it, why did God let him?

Note that God claims credit for "the heavens and the earth." The assumption that in doing so God is claiming to have created everything is not mine.
Shockingly, God is indeed responsible for the conditions the eternal soul must contend with after they pass on from this plane of existence.

As I've already pointed out, a reference like "eternal" is strictly tied to this "plane of existence." It's a simple claim of expansion beyond seemingly limited extent in the dimension of time. Passage from this plane of existence has nothing to do with extensions in a known direction within this plane of existence.

Meanwhile, again, if blaming God, "shockingly" or not, is working for you, then carry on.
 
Note that God claims credit for "the heavens and the earth." The assumption that in doing so God is claiming to have created everything is not mine.
Then who made Hell? Why does God not save his children from eternal torment? If it's because they rejected him, surely a merciful, loving, all-forgiving God would forgive them and set them straight?
 
I have to say, I could get on-board with the idea that God is but a mere baron in a vast universe of feudal duchies. It only created the Earth and his personal slice of ethereal heaven. Us heathens can't be serfs in its fields, but maybe another deity would take us in. The afterlife being a convoluted game of Crusader Kings 2 means I've got an advantage.
 
Then who made Hell? Why does God not save his children from eternal torment? If it's because they rejected him, surely a merciful, loving, all-forgiving God would forgive them and set them straight?

Who made hell is above my paygrade, but I like the answer from the television show Lucifer, which is that the answer is humanity. It fits pretty well with "you can choose god or you can choose hell, but that's pretty much the extent of the choices." Man (not a man, and not each man, but man) is created to be in the image of god. No part of man that doesn't want to be part of that is forced to do so, but those parts shouldn't expect unicorns and rainbows.

Meanwhile, I don't know whether to respond to the "if it's because they rejected him" part of your premise or the "then surely" part since I neither claimed nor subscribe to either one.
 
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