Facing Mortality

[Berzerker]

dont blame Lucifer, he's the one who gave us the knowledge of good and evil - he's the original rebel

 

[Hygro]

In our culture there are two meanings of a near death experience.
One is a claim you came near death.
The other is a phenomenon in which you brain actually believes you are dying and initiates the DMT trip and whatever else. This is the intended "near death experience"/NDE definition.

 

[Hrothbern]

Not accurate. The earliest reference to Hell is the Hebrew "ge Hinnom", in Genesis. It is a small valley outside Jerusalem, where all kinds of refuse was thrown. Sewage, rubbish, piles of dead bones, and later on child sacrifice was performed there. They burned their trash, and the fire never went out. Day and night, every day, it was always smoking. This is where they got their understanding of Hell, and it is from that where the Greeks got the word "Gehenna", or Hell.

Ok, thanks. So the origin of the name was Hebrew and ended even up in Greek.
And the fire now makes sense.
And that "everybody" knew about it as well !

But in the Old Testament it is not mentioned as the concept Hell, as place in the after life to burn for your sinns.
Correct ?

 

[Kyriakos]

Your principles are meaningless if they exist only out of fear. You are a servant, not an individual. This defeats the point of the free will your God bestowed upon us.

Not my speed, sorry. I typically rate as anti-theist, but I'm especially anti that. That doctrine reeks of abuse.

But also: it's not hard at all to debase yourself in front of that God. After all, it set out virtues and principles you should adhere to. It obviously has some idea of proper living. That doesn't mean too much if your principles are so easily malleable. Sprinkle a little fear and you'll dance to any tune, and you think your Lord sees that as the system working as intended?

Your Lord sounds a bit like Lucifer. I doubt that's your intended proselytization here.

Believing out of fear is entirely in line with judaic religions, including christianity. So there is no wrong with in the context of the actual religion. Even that famous math guy (a christian) supported it as a calculation.
Religions aren't about ethics based on logic or logic-induced values.

Furthermore, in theory, if indeed x saves and non x dooms you, x may be anything. Including fear. Afterall, in theory a god might even be brutal. The aztecs killed people to empower a space monster to fight other space monster.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

death is the ultimate comfort. the warm embrace. death is an egalitarian utopia. death is perfect. death is always with you. you begin to decay the day you're born. no matter how rich or how powerful, how careful or reckless, we exhibit little control over death. everyone I ever hated or disliked will soon be dead, cosmically speaking. no matter how much of a failure you are, death doesn't judge at all. she doesn't spare you for any mortal logic, she adheres only to her own. death gets everyone who has ever lived, and unites us. we're all just hanging out in the waiting room, chatting, enjoying our break, before the voyage begins. death is not at all the antithesis of life life is death. without death, life wouldn't mean anything. I am utterly grateful for death. it's truly the best we have, and I mean that as sincerely as humanly possible.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

My thesis is that death is something that should be fought, and can be defeated. All human deaths have a cause, and each of those causes is fundamentally solvable. It requires a deliberate effort, but that effort is a worthy one.

Conquering the blight of involuntary death. It is a worthy endeavor.

your utopia is my nightmare. a world without death is as horrible as a world without suffering. it's a world I don't want any part in.

"involuntary death", what a weird idea if you think about it for a long time. do I breathe voluntarily? no, I just breathe. I know I need to breathe to stay alive, and I literally cannot stop myself from breathing, but that doesn't say anything about me wanting, or not wanting to breathe. I suppose that in their last moments, many people who felt "ready" might change their mind..

what is defying death, ultimately? you don't really do it for other people mostly, do you? it's the ultimate selfish behavior. (next to having kids of course, but I won't talk about this subject anymore because I don't feel like getting banned again)

Death is the great equalizer

this is true

evolution gave us a fear of death to keep us alive and religion was the result

"all experience is just chemicals in your brains! love is a lie!" - say the chemicals in your brains

religion is much more profound than a way of conquering one's fear of death. and our relationship to death is much more profound than its evolutionary aspects. religion has it's origin in thought, philosophy, and transcendental experience (often drug rooted). many scientists today believe that we as a species made huge leaps in our conscious thought both via deep reflection and catharsis, and via transcendental experiences. some of the ideas of creation are so well-thought out and power that even today people believe in them, even if they don't advertise themselves at all! even as a non religious person I can see value both in the practice and in the philosophy behind religion.

dont blame Lucifer, he's the one who gave us the knowledge of good and evil - he's the original rebel

Lucy is the James Dean of the religious world

 

[Synobun]

Believing out of fear is entirely in line with judaic religions, including christianity. So there is no wrong with in the context of the actual religion. Even that famous math guy (a christian) supported it as a calculation.
Religions aren't about ethics based on logic or logic-induced values.

Furthermore, in theory, if indeed x saves and non x dooms you, x may be anything. Including fear. Afterall, in theory a god might even be brutal. The aztecs killed people to empower a space monster to fight other space monster.

You're right, of course. I just feel that any system which goes out of its way to give you free will but also expects dogged servantry is fundamentally corrupt, especially when exercising that free will gets you a VIP ticket to eternal damnation. You're being given the illusion of a choice, which seems incompatible with the foundation of the mythos. That is, the foundation which specifically outlines how humans have sin and how free will is both our greatest gift and greatest curse. All of that is essentially window dressing if the real expectation is simple obedience to any Word that may be passed down from the Heavens, lest you be punished beyond this life and all lives to follow.

 

[AdamCrock]

How do you folks deal when that mortal feeling hits?
More religion?
Brainwash a younger person with your values and turn them into a mini-me?
Paint something?
Get more kids / pets?

I think I'll just stay away from the doom threads for a few months

Well let's see ... You might get more luxury resources - stay away from wine though. Contrary to the popular belief it's not too healthy and besides you'll need a grocer to get the bonus. Best to trade it away for something else like i.e hit movies Speaking of which Monty Python's "Life of Brian" is a great movie that teaches how to "always look on the bright side of death"

Spoiler :

You also might increase the slider a bit and attend some cultural events if that's Your cup of tea If all else fails be like Gilgamesh ! Grow a beard ! Grab a spear and jump on a chariot of fire for glory and immortality !!

Now more seriously my method is to do things that make me happy. I'm now 33 y.o but my both parents are already gone and I have no one except my 2 brothers. When my mother died I've spent a lot of time mourning and thinking about death but it was nothing conclusive so now I'm trying to think of life only and enjoy it as much as I can. To completely forget about death however would be foolish but currently I'm postponing that. I am fairly sure that I've already accepted my mortality though.

 

[Lexicus]

I didn't accept Christ because I was afraid of death. I accepted Christ because I was afraid of Hell.

As others have noted, this means you are like an "epistemic hostage"! You do not believe what you believe because you think it is right, or logically justified, you believe it out of fear! I'm afraid I must agree with @Synsensa that any god who accepts worshipers who are only there because they are afraid is not worth worshiping at all. Indeed imo any god who creates a universe where "eternal torment" is even a possibility for any conscious entity inside that universe, is an obviously evil god who should be rebelled against.

I think the Buddhists generally have the right idea when it comes to death: attachment to life is what causes the fear of death, and real liberation can come from transcending this attachment. That is of course not easy to do. I've tried to get to the point where I accept my own death with equanimity but I doubt I am anywhere close to that. Despite having been depressed for a long time with some suicidal thoughts etc. I don't think I ever got to the point where my will to live had significantly diminished. And I will say that like @Phrossack in the top of my mind I had concluded basically the only reason to go on living was because my friends and family would not like it if I died.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

your utopia is my nightmare. a world without death is as horrible as a world without suffering. it's a world I don't want any part in.

"involuntary death", what a weird idea if you think about it for a long time. do I breathe voluntarily? no, I just breathe. I know I need to breathe to stay alive, and I literally cannot stop myself from breathing, but that doesn't say anything about me wanting, or not wanting to breathe. I suppose that in their last moments, many people who felt "ready" might change their mind..

what is defying death, ultimately? you don't really do it for other people mostly, do you? it's the ultimate selfish behavior. (next to having kids of course, but I won't talk about this subject anymore because I don't feel like getting banned again)

Even if he does it for himself, i don' know what is more selfish, wishing immortality for oneself or death for everyone because you feel like it.

 

[Kyriakos]

In christian mythos, god himself (through his son and fellow triad member) had to live as human and suffer the worst faith (though, tbh, he didnt suffer worst of all; eg he wasnt a leper, nor maimed nor other such, and while his death was brutal it could have been even more so). I suppose this theme of god dieing is tied to the humans being told that their master may seem like a cruel entity, but he would suffer what he causes them even while himself being innocent.
Which is messed up; i am sure you wouldnt like being hit with a belt if only your tormentor then hit his own self with it.

 

[Phrossack]

As others have noted, this means you are like an "epistemic hostage"! You do not believe what you believe because you think it is right, or logically justified, you believe it out of fear! I'm afraid I must agree with @Synsensa that any god who accepts worshipers who are only there because they are afraid is not worth worshiping at all. Indeed imo any god who creates a universe where "eternal torment" is even a possibility for any conscious entity inside that universe, is an obviously evil god who should be rebelled against.

I think the Buddhists generally have the right idea when it comes to death: attachment to life is what causes the fear of death, and real liberation can come from transcending this attachment. That is of course not easy to do. I've tried to get to the point where I accept my own death with equanimity but I doubt I am anywhere close to that. Despite having been depressed for a long time with some suicidal thoughts etc. I don't think I ever got to the point where my will to live had significantly diminished. And I will say that like @Phrossack in the top of my mind I had concluded basically the only reason to go on living was because my friends and family would not like it if I died.

It's easy to be detached from life if you don't like yours. If faced with death now, I'd be frustrated that I had unfinished business and sad that I had parents to leave behind, but not afraid.

But obviously this isn't suitable for someone who does like life. I'm in no position to give advice to them beyond what I've said about not worrying about the inevitable and not wasting your only vacation worrying about going back to work.

 

[Lexicus]

It's easy to be detached from life if you don't like yours.

I've found it's not easy even then. The will to live is, I think, separate from liking life or liking being alive. As I noted in the anti-natalism discussion a little while ago, simply being alive seems to create a very strong attachment to continuing to be alive. Indeed one of the points about suicide is that it generally takes a very severe mental illness to overcome that basic will to keep living.

 

[Kyriakos]

Survival instinct is the strongest one and goes far beyond conscious parameters. Which is why it doesnt manifest unless you actually try to kill yourself; but then you are met with vast opposition.

 

[El_Machinae]

Lets work on saving the kids that die from entirely preventable reasons, work to eradicate the curable diseases that big pharma isn't interested in because the poor can't pay, do everything we can to give everybody we can a decent 70-80 years before we start working on how the rich can live for ever.

This isn't an either/or situation in the broad scope. What you're doing is focusing on either the more preventable deaths or the most tragic deaths. You'll get no argument from me. And I will appreciate any efforts someone puts here. If someone is donating to fight polio or Ebola or TB or dysentry or to fund the creation of new antibiotics, I am 100% in their corner.

And for all of these causes I would recommend people purchase fewer streaming service, go out of hot wings less often, or vacation locally instead of far away. People's lack of effort on this front get my derision. Especially if they're fundamentally more powerful than 50% of the planet.

To me, this is as obvious as intentionally reducing your environmental footprint and earmarking some savings to fund investment ideas on this front.

Others worry about environmental degradation and future tyranny. And I think these are correct concerns. But they're problems that exist whether or not life spans extend or if we peel away at the damages done by aging. If these things concern you, fight them. And I will help you fight them. Your opponent isn't me. It's the hedonist who spends all of their income as if their pleasure is paramount. It's the person who doesn't care about externalities that are two steps removed from them. I don't think that 125,000 deaths per day are in the 'acceptable' set of ways of reducing this problem.

You've prioritized the problems, and that's fine. But I think that "100,000 people dying after a decade of decrepitude" is a problem worth tackling. And, if you're not going to put your parents on an ice floe as soon as they start making noises about retiring, you're implicitly agreeing with me.

 

[Phrossack]

I've found it's not easy even then. The will to live is, I think, separate from liking life or liking being alive. As I noted in the anti-natalism discussion a little while ago, simply being alive seems to create a very strong attachment to continuing to be alive. Indeed one of the points about suicide is that it generally takes a very severe mental illness to overcome that basic will to keep living.

I guess it depends on what we mean when we talk about "will to live" or "attachment to life."

If my building caught fire, or I were attacked by someone with deadly intentions, I'd try to survive due to dislike of pain, having things to do, not wanting to sadden my loved ones or let my hated ones outlive me, outrage at the gall of someone trying to murder me, and probably some basic survival instinct would do that. This is, to me, will to live.

But I never sit around worrying about death on a daily basis, if at all. It doesn't concern me, and I'm not going to worry about the truly inevitable things I can't control. If I were in a crashing plane, I'd be annoyed and very frustrated for the aforementioned reasons, but not worried about the death itself. This is what I mean by detachment.

I actually kind of like thinking about my death. It doesn't scare me, and believing I could handle it with dignity and calm acceptance gives me a sense of relief. But with an incomplete bucket list, and loved ones still living, dying would probably put me in a pretty bad mood!

Come to think of it, I really should get around to finishing my bucket list, since death can happen at any time.

 

[civvver]

It's a scary thing to think about, but then I consider all the people in history who have gone before me, including people I knew personally. Basically, if they can all do it, so can I. You don't really have a choice. Might as well accept it.

Diseases like alzheimers and als scare me more than death. If I could live with my health to a ripe old age in my 90s I'd die pretty happy. If I end up crazy not knowing the faces of anyone I used to love, that scares me much more. Or to have als and fully functioning brain but not be able to move.

I actually discussed this with my wife briefly yesterday. Due to all the snow she had me make sure the furnace exhaust wasn't covered so we didn't die from co poisoning. It reminded me of that family who died in their sleep in Mexico last year due to a gas leak. They all went together, peacefully. I was thinking, would that really be so awful? The part about death that is terrible is the people we leave behind. If I died, my children wouldn't have as good of a life financially and of course they would miss me and my parenting. If they died I would miss them terribly and probably the usual questions of why they died so young. If we all died in a terrifying manner like a plane crash those final moments would be excruciating. But if we all died peacefully in our sleep? We wouldn't miss or need each other in life still and we would have no anxiety about it since we wouldn't know. I want to live a long full happy life of course, I'm just saying that doesn't seem like such a bad way to go.

 

[Lexicus]

I guess it depends on what we mean when we talk about "will to live" or "attachment to life."

Yeah, I don't mean anything like sitting and worrying about death. I mean something more basic, more like the impulse that makes you take that next breath.

Incidentally, here is one take on the thread topic:

Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land!

And so I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!!

 

[AmazonQueen]

This isn't an either/or situation in the broad scope. What you're doing is focusing on either the more preventable deaths or the most tragic deaths. You'll get no argument from me. And I will appreciate any efforts someone puts here. If someone is donating to fight polio or Ebola or TB or dysentry or to fund the creation of new antibiotics, I am 100% in their corner.

And for all of these causes I would recommend people purchase fewer streaming service, go out of hot wings less often, or vacation locally instead of far away. People's lack of effort on this front get my derision. Especially if they're fundamentally more powerful than 50% of the planet.

To me, this is as obvious as intentionally reducing your environmental footprint and earmarking some savings to fund investment ideas on this front.

Others worry about environmental degradation and future tyranny. And I think these are correct concerns. But they're problems that exist whether or not life spans extend or if we peel away at the damages done by aging. If these things concern you, fight them. And I will help you fight them. Your opponent isn't me. It's the hedonist who spends all of their income as if their pleasure is paramount. It's the person who doesn't care about externalities that are two steps removed from them. I don't think that 125,000 deaths per day are in the 'acceptable' set of ways of reducing this problem.

You've prioritized the problems, and that's fine. But I think that "100,000 people dying after a decade of decrepitude" is a problem worth tackling. And, if you're not going to put your parents on an ice floe as soon as they start making noises about retiring, you're implicitly agreeing with me.

I think you have to prioritise the problems though.
Atm putting research into expanding lifespan will just exacerbate our problems with resources and population.
In the west in the last 70 years we've made massive strides in increasing liveable lifespan which is why my mum at 80 is still golfing, gardening and driving. Thats great but western nations are struggling to deal with ageing populations, with the social problems caused by immigration required to get people of working age, and the rest of the world is struggling to deal with our consumption of resources.
Until we deal with how to provide resources for our society without destroying our planet, work out an acceptable work/life balance when we are living much longer active lives, and work out how we're going to manage with a 3rd world thats not just going to accept our privileged status it should be an either/or situation.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Survival instinct is the strongest one and goes far beyond conscious parameters. Which is why it doesnt manifest unless you actually try to kill yourself; but then you are met with vast opposition.

the strongest of all are love and hatred, as they motivate people to either sacrifice their life to save another life, or sacrifice their life to end another one's.