Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

[WarKirby]

As the sheiam, you should probably use skeleton swarms against archers.

Actually, it would seem logical for skeletons to have a bonus against archers, since arrows would fall through the holes in their skeletal body.

 

[not-prime]

As the sheiam, you should probably use skeleton swarms against archers.

Actually, it would seem logical for skeletons to have a bonus against archers, since arrows would fall through the holes in their skeletal body.

Well I was just pointing out that since all the AI does is spam archers (at least in all my games) it makes pyre zombies mostly worthless in the early game where they are supposed to shine. And yeah, it'd be nice if the Sheaim got something to counteract archers so they could live to see the later game. And giving skeletons a bonus against archers seems like a flavorful and balanced way of doing it.

 

[WarKirby]

Don't pyre zombies still do damage on death to the unit they were fighting ? It seems odd that it would take that many to kill one archer. Maybe you just had bad luck?

Even with the archer strength penalty, pyre zombies would still be very useful for city assault, since they're basically berserkers, and cause collateral damage. Have you tried using them to assault fortified emplacements? I did think that -40% might be a bit harsh, but I can see how they have the potential to wreck cities easily.

 

[not-prime]

Don't pyre zombies still do damage on death to the unit they were fighting ? It seems odd that it would take that many to kill one archer. Maybe you just had bad luck?

Even with the archer strength penalty, pyre zombies would still be very useful for city assault, since they're basically berserkers, and cause collateral damage. Have you tried using them to assault fortified emplacements? I did think that -40% might be a bit harsh, but I can see how they have the potential to wreck cities easily.

The thing is that before promotions and on treeless grassland it's 3.75 str vs 8.25. Add in hills, cities and promotions and you can easily toss 5+ pyre zombies per archer making it nearly impossible to pick up steam in any offensive war since they have the same cost. And yes they still do damage on death but it seems to be much less then I remember it being, to the point where it's seems a decimal point got shifted over. Basically it seems like the nerfs were justified before the AI was improved but in the current version of FF it seems a bit much.

 

[WarKirby]

The thing is that before promotions and on treeless grassland it's 3.75 str vs 8.25.

How can this be true. Shouldn't it be 3.00 vs 5.00 ? Assuming a pyre zombie with bronze weapons, and -40% vs archers.

Unless you're counting some promotions in there.

 

[not-prime]

How can this be true. Shouldn't it be 3.00 vs 5.00 ? Assuming a pyre zombie with bronze weapons, and -40% vs archers.

Unless you're counting some promotions in there.

Not counting any promotions including bronze. And I meant 7 rather than 8. With bronze it gets a little better but still far from good.

Edit: Ah I see, you thought the -40% reduced the Pyre Zombie's str vs archers by 40%. The way it works in practice is it increases the archer's defensive str vs the Pyre Zombie by 40%.

 

[WarKirby]

You never mentioned they were Orcs. That makes your odds slightly worse, as pyre zombies have some fire strength, and orcs have fire resistance. Doesn't make a lot of difference though.

I'd say the -40% penalty is a bit too much.

 

[Pohlmann]

my balance suggestions:

decrease barb stack size by 1 (size 4 then) and increase total sum of spawned stacks

take away the 1 poison strength from wolf riders (even chariots are easier to beat)

rebalance Sidar specialist bonus (Engineer far too useful (50% bonus), bard very rarely useful, and scientist with 4 is strange compared to the 3 hammers)

same goes for super specialists. why take great scientists if u can have engineers? 2 hammers is better than 4 science. increase it to 8 at least or grant 5% research bonus so it makes stacking them worthwile

 

[rocklikeafool]

my balance suggestions:

decrease barb stack size by 1 (size 4 then) and increase total sum of spawned stacks

take away the 1 poison strength from wolf riders (even chariots are easier to beat)

rebalance Sidar specialist bonus (Engineer far too useful (50% bonus), bard very rarely useful, and scientist with 4 is strange compared to the 3 hammers)

same goes for super specialists. why take great scientists if u can have engineers? 2 hammers is better than 4 science. increase it to 8 at least or grant 5% research bonus so it makes stacking them worthwile

And why do these need to be balanced? Suggesting this without justification doesn't help us see your point of view. It'd nice to know a lil more than what you need fixed.

 

[Kjara]

The fact that engineer specialists get more of a boost than other specialists isn't really a problem considering how much harder it is to get the buildings that let you run them.

Whats always bothered me is that priests get no boost at all for the sidar. Would it be too overpowering to give a slight gpp increase for priests(1, or if thats too much, .5)--I guess it might make altar victories too easy?

I think his point on the last line is that its almost always better to wane into a great engineer than a great scientist(4 hammers+3 research vs 1 hammer and 7 research). This is more an artifact of how much easier it is to sustain commerce then it is hammers(as most good hammer tiles before engineering/industry have 0-1 food, while you can cottage or aristo-farm you way around on 2-3 food tiles for most of the game). If anything I'd suggest lowering the amount of research the great engineer gives, not increasing the amount that a great scientist gives(perhaps make geng 3(+1 )/2 rather than 3(+1)/3).

Edit: A different balance issue: should hidden nationality units be able to be lead by great commanders? Its trivial to farm great commander exp with a few shadows with mask(so they can swap back and forth at will), and seems a bit odd.

 

[Pohlmann]

Wolf riders will be spawned already at turn 40-50. at this time u might have 2 or 3 fairly promoted warriors.

they pillage so u have to attack them to prevent them from destroying 2 or 3 of your improvements. but they cant be killed by 1 warrior and if u are unlucky not even by 2.

chariots are the stronger offensive unit here but they can be killed fairly easy.

considering barbstack size. 5 orcish warriors can take out 2 warriors if they get lucky.
this only leads to turtleing until u have loads of warriors. in the early game the loss of 1 warrior can happen. so assume that u have a cityguard of 3 defender. 1 of them dies and u train another one (in a non capital) which takes 5 to 9 turns.
suddenly 5 barbs pop up just right out of town and they can take your city without u being able to stop them because u wont be able to reproduce another warrior in the meantime. imo barbs are meant for harassment and not for taking cities by chance. let them be everywhere to pillage your stuff and threaten your workers but not overwhelm you.

considering super specialists.
if im not a philosophical leader i never settle any great person. there are 2 exceptions: finding an engineer very very early (turn 1-40), receiving a great prophet very early while not being able to bulb a religion or at least philosophy.

1st sage always builds academy.
then it either becomes a prophet -> shrine
or another sage -> save for ga
bard -> bulb sanitation
yet another scientist -> bulb alteration
merchant -> nox noctis / guilds / bulb
engineer -> get guild / smith building/ finish wonder

etc

all of these things are way more useful than settling a great person in almost any case. a 2nd academy is way more useful than a settled sage.

u can have 5 or 6 engineers before settling them is even of any use compared to the other benefits they offer

this list goes on and on.

Settling great persons is only useful in the earlygame (only exception is the merchant with his foodbonus. otherwise bulbing is way more useful as u get the benefit instantly instead of waiting 150 turns on it

and very lategame all science output is wasted anyway if u have a scienceoutput of 1000 science per turn and dont even have to research anything anymore

if its only useful earlygame and still its always better to do other things with them -> buff them

i wouldnt post my balancesuggestions without thinking about it beforehand. u could do the same thinking and would come to the same or quite similar results i'd say

another idea/suggestion: would it be possible to grant very old very experienced units a similar seasoned promotion enabling them to get the heroic promotions or 1 of them (like small heroes). Often i end up with some highly promoted units who end up as champions or rangers. all immortalslots are already in use and beastmasters also /i trained them forgetting my experienced units . Now one could choose to either upgrade the unit to a national unit OR grant them this veteran bonus (prereq 150 turns of experience and at least level 7 or 8). how does it sound?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

not really a balance question, but still.

should a civ be able to attack HN units in a friendly civ's city?

I really have a hard time imagining an army attacking a city and only killing the hidden nationality units

 

[Andvare]

With the new Great General system, shouldn't the mobility promotion line be opened to Great Generals, as a way for them to keep up with mounted units.
It hurts the mounted based playing style that they can only move 2 (3 with haste).

 

[Wodan]

Following up on the great commander / mounted issue, I've run into a related concern. One of the Jotar's big advantages is being able to walk over mountains and ignore terrain (and this will also apply to dwarves, elves, and others). However, when the GC can't do the same, it pretty much makes an army not able to use those benefits. In other words, the entire army can walk over the mountains or ignore terrain EXCEPT for the single person, the general.

So, it's two related situations... mounted, and ignore terrain / impassable. Somebody suggested making the GC able to attach. That seems to me to be a big hairy mess, programming-wise. But it might work. Giving the GC the "race" of the civ will work for some of the situations (but not mounted). So maybe it needs some all-encompassing solution (such as "attach") or maybe a partial solution will be better than nothing.

 

[Beardy Dan]

The commander Promo Battlefield Tactician gives Tactics 1&2; this can be used as a shortcut to Blitz.

Should archers shooting count for commander XP when vampires’ feeding doesn’t, even if the commander has been gifted vampirism?

Captured Hill Giants, but not the ones from the Pact of the Nilhorn, can be upgraded to champions. I’m not sure it’s much of a balance problem, except for the age related promos, if they still are acquired. I’m not sure if my Ravenous Werewolf Vampire Giantkin will get them as he is only six years old, which probably explains his size.

For great commanders how about if they had abilities tied to leaders traits like:

Aggressive Battle Commander 1
Agnostic Give scourge to Minions
Arcane Arcane Mentor 1
Barbarian - not sure
Charismatic Field Commander
Conqueror - not sure
Creative Battlefield Tactician
Defenders Garrison Commander 1
Expansive Give Medic 1/regeneration to Minions
Feral - not sure
Financial Give bounty hunter to Minions
Industrious - not sure
Ingenuity - not sure
Organised Command Limit 1
Philosophical - not sure
Raiders Give Morale to Minions
Spiritual Religious Leader 1
Summoner Minions summons +1 duration.

As well as making the mobility promos available, adding unique commanders for a few more civs (maybe all) and re-adjusting the current uniques.

 

[Breez]

Captured Hill Giants, but not the ones from the Pact of the Nilhorn, can be upgraded to champions. I’m not sure it’s much of a balance problem, except for the age related promos, if they still are acquired.

While I am not sure about Champions My Larry, Moe, and Curly are all currently Phalanx's which is beyond champions.

 

[rocklikeafool]

considering barbstack size. 5 orcish warriors can take out 2 warriors if they get lucky.this only leads to turtleing until u have loads of warriors. in the early game the loss of 1 warrior can happen. so assume that u have a cityguard of 3 defender. 1 of them dies and u train another one (in a non capital) which takes 5 to 9 turns. suddenly 5 barbs pop up just right out of town and they can take your city without u being able to stop them because u wont be able to reproduce another warrior in the meantime. imo barbs are meant for harassment and not for taking cities by chance. let them be everywhere to pillage your stuff and threaten your workers but not overwhelm you.

I take it that you're assuming that this all happens with 'perfect' conditions. In actuality, I've found that it doesn't work this way. Besides, if you're smart about how you promote your units, any promotions AND the bonus against barbs usually allows you to handle any barbs, even the demon barbs in the late game.

 

[rocklikeafool]

not really a balance question, but still.

should a civ be able to attack HN units in a friendly civ's city?

I really have a hard time imagining an army attacking a city and only killing the hidden nationality units

Imho, you shouldn't garrison cities with HN units. Not too smart.

 

[Iceciro]

The AIs will do it though, which is the problem.

Related problems are the Archos who will garrison or keep their baby spiders in their cities.

 

[rocklikeafool]

The AIs will do it though, which is the problem.

Related problems are the Archos who will garrison or keep their baby spiders in their cities.

Well, makes it easier to weaken the AIs then.

Nah, but I get what you're saying. I don't think anyone's come up with a solution to this yet. I know it took a lot of work to even get the AI to where it is now.