Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

[Kentarion]

i have always mixed armies - and i just see my explorers dying promoted to hell (3 of them) when trying to attack a archer in a eg. wooden tile. - without having them bombarded.

so yes mixed armies, thats what i had since i played civ 1 in fact - haha.

nevertheless it's much more important now to go for the archers first then some other unit.

but i understand your point.

 

[WarKirby]

i have always mixed armies - and i just see my explorers dying promoted to hell (3 of them) when trying to attack a archer in a eg. wooden tile. - without having them bombarded.

Recon units have lower strength than archers have defence. or melee units, for this matter. Attacking almost anything with a scout is hopeless, and hunters aren't particularly good at assaulting entrenched positions either.

trying to attack a defensive enemy, in a terrain which provides a defensive bonus, is your second mistake. If they're explorers, then presumably they're out in the wilderness, so you could just ignore that archer and move on.

If the archer is inside your territory causing problems then you should have a stack of warriors at the ready to deal with it. I keep a minimum of 4 warriors on hand at all times as soon as I can make them. Not having an army has always been a suicidal move, even in FFH. You're just asking for orthus to turn up and murder your empire.

In general, archers have a critical weakness. They can't attack very well. Use this to your advantage. You can try to taunt barbarian archers into attacking you by standing in an open field near them, for example.

I find wolf riders far more annoying, personally. 3 movement, 4 attack strength. They come out of nowhere, and kill my workers, and usually the warrior guarding them. Goblin archers are only a nuisance

 

[Kentarion]

there's not always a desert field around for better chances. there are some maps wich are completely full of woods. and as deirdre the hunters(explorers) are my main army - i think that's how this race is supposed to be played - but you're right i should have to build more warriors here - they are twice as fast anyway. still the maintainance will kill me

but we are drifting away from balance issue itself. i try to change some focus in my style and tell you how it worked out.

 

[admtanaka]

The barbarian trait has gotten really powerful with the increase in barb activity. I played as the Doviello and between that and Feral REXed halfway to domination.

What was even better was that my own territory was a breeding ground for barbs, who then marched into my neighbors. On emperor, I had more than twice the score of my next opponent by turn 200 or so. I'm not a good player either.

 

[UNIT 666]

Does For the Horde!, the Clan of Embers Worldspell, currently include Goblinoid units? If not, it should - patch B has made Goblins, Gretchins, and, of course, Goblin Archers unable to be turned to the Clan of Ember's side by using it.

 

[WarKirby]

Does For the Horde!, the Clan of Embers Worldspell, currently include Goblinoid units? If not, it should - patch B has made Goblins, Gretchins, and, of course, Goblin Archers unable to be turned to the Clan of Ember's side by using it.

I believe it includes barbarian units in general, but I didn't actuall get control of any goblins when I did it earlier. Will have a look at the python.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Hm, I think I have seen similar posts as this one, but none really achieve the answer that occurred to me recently.

So until a few days ago I had always played FF and FFH2 at chieftain. I played noble when I played Beyond the Sword and figured that if I wanted the same comfortable atmosphere I should stay the same or go lower with FFH2/FF -with all those scary barbs around I thought anything near prince or monarch would be shear suicide-. It seems however that when I bumped up to noble -and then monarch the game after that- FF seemed easier that BtS. This is likely just due to me not getting to far into the game. But the question this raised was:

In FF what changes with the difficulty?

Starting location and resources I imagine as that has always been around. Are barbarians harder to kill at higher difficulties like in BtS? Or are they just many times quicker to spawn? It quite possible that my recollection of BtS is just outdated and maybe I got better, or that noble was in fact easier than I am remembering.

This seems to be a very broad question, so thanks humongously for any response at of information -it seems that this might be asking a lot-.

Ps: Ah, and why the balance thread? I dislike crowding the forum with single question threads; barring making a new thread this seemed to be the most general thread and thus received this post.

 

[xienwolf]

You get a couple of free wins against Barbarians at lower difficulty levels, usually wasted on victories you would have had anyway, but sometimes they help you clear your starting area or take down a spider.

Higher Difficulties have more total barbarians and quicker spawn rates, and eventually also grants free XP upon creation.

Mostly at the lower levels it is the same as BtS, the primary difference between Difficulty Levels is the free Happy/Health in each city.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Thanks for the information Xien.

 

[Kjara]

Last bit on great commander promotions for now: The magical ones seem a bit underpowered and micro intensive(its worth switching new adepts to them until they get their first few magic spheres, then you want to switch to a new adept). It seems to me it might be better to have them be similar to the recon line, where it gives more unique abilities, and perhaps ones that actually help their casting power, so that you want to lead your high level mages, not just the new ones(on top of this, due to rounding, you get no exp for leading the lower level mages, meaning a commander that is just leading new adepts will never get better).

Ideas for special abilities: Magic resistance reduction, summon length (+1?), spell charge(spend 1 turn, so the next turn you do more damage, have a str boost to a summon, and/or lower magic res on your target), def boost(for anti assassin), % chance of doublecast(25%?). Doesn't have to be all of these, but some subset possibly.

 

[rocklikeafool]

And its like that - raging barbarians - masses of archers from the enemy - that's how the ai works it out now. bombard and pillage - without counterbombardmend - in a wood/hill tile - i want to see how much promoted horsemens you need...

I've found a decent way to avoid this myself. I usually play the Scions on FF. Population is an issue in the beginning, of course. (As is getting the population to get enough research.) This is, naturally, cuz the Scions' civ trait is Fallow. Anyway...

I usually send out a lot of Scouts and Centai (Scion warrior UU), more Centai than Scouts. (Despite the fact that Centai have the "unreliable" promotion automatically, they are still better than Scouts for combat, being UNIT_COMBAT. [Is that the right tag name? :shrug:]) The reason for that is then you can deal with any early barb units. The goal should be to find as many lairs as possible and destroy them.

Also, in case you don't know (you said you mainly used to play FfH but not what version of it), there are now 3 Barb factions. There are Cernnuous (Animals), Bhall (Savage), and Agares (Demons). As a result, there's more barbs. (I believe those factions were brought over from FfH 0.41.) By destroying thosr early Lairs you reduce the number of barbs that spawn from them.

Edit: Watch out for Spiders or any semipowerful units that might pop up, especially from lairs. Some of those units that pop out of lairs could potentially destroy your whole civ if you're not careful.

Btw, I don't ever use my first warrior unit (playing on Noble difficulty) to fortify my capital. As the Scions, I automatically get Kironna the Protector on turn 1, so there's no point. As any other civ, I just build a warrior for protection. Just be careful, of course, those first turns til that first capital defender is built. (I've lost a few times cuz I wasn't. )

 

[xienwolf]

For a Magical Commander I would want a TwinCast ability at the end of the chain personally. Then you can get Twincast + Commander + Spellstaff for 4 spells in a single turn (3 each turn after that) to really get a nice drop on your opponent.

 

[Kjara]

Heck if you wanted, it could be something like l1/l2/l3 => [some other boost minor boost]/50%/50% twincast chance increase, so by putting 3 points in, you get 100% twincast + whatever boost level 1 gives.

Another non-related idea-> what about a trained bodyguards promotion for the commander that gives his followers guardsman(and perhaps a minor offensive penalty/defensive boost or something)?

 

[Kentarion]

I've found a decent way to avoid this myself... etc.

Thanks, i appreciate the tipps. It's not a big deal in a single player game to reload if you didn't see the enemy coming, lairs poping etc. etc.
I remebered the first time with FF playing as dural - having a City on a Hill between Moutains (typical bridepoint of defense) - enough space for me to grow - keep the enemy away. Then sometime the whole world declared war and masses of Archers - even when the ai had champions blocking the city - every turn bombard - very view attacks (i had about 8 archers myself there - some axeman, horses, disciples, catapults, 3 Great Commandes watching over them. - but it was just a question of time that i would fail... to many of them - and counterattacks always costed much units - with no big effect. - one step outside the City and i'v been bombed to dust from 3 races... I didn't have the tech for Wizards/Fireballs/Storm whatever - it never came to it - even with about 30 Units in the City they killed it. I simple wasn't used to this new style of - long - war. I thought ok - let's how this works out.

No first rush possible anymore - because the ai goes for archers VERY soon. In ffh2 if a enemy was like 10 turns away - i always tried to rush it with about 12 warriors - now this time is too long - 1 archers ruins the rush. even with 12 axemen your chances drop to like nothing, even with champions you have bad chances. - so yes, i think archers are overpowered. They were strong before - without bombarding. But with bombard this getting really a ultimate defense for a long time.

And as multiplayer - i always play with friends nearly every day... reload etc. is not acceptable. there is always somthing going on - and as no rush is possible it is imminant to build settlers to fortify your possition. Less time to build warriors. Less time to build everything - and less time to scout around with a stack of warriors/recons to kill all the lairs (they are no thread anyway) - for fortresses - they pop often too - you need min. 3 archers & 3 warriors/axemen - if you bombard them - they leave the fortress - funny thing, if there is a saver spot nearby (they love hill+wood) - if you don't finish them off - they will come later (when you don't need it) and pillage everything - best thing when in a war - far away with your troops.

So whatever - now i'm more used to it. i can handle it better - but in the start it's really annoying. And my friends felt the same way several times....I heard them say: "ah... with 8 axemen i will crush this little archer..." and then they are really f...ed.

Maybe it's just a change in gameplay, but for sure it's a little bit unusual.

 

[Grimz101]

Thanks, i appreciate the tipps. It's not a big deal in a single player game to reload if you didn't see the enemy coming, lairs poping etc. etc.
I remebered the first time with FF playing as dural - having a City on a Hill between Moutains (typical bridepoint of defense) - enough space for me to grow - keep the enemy away. Then sometime the whole world declared war and masses of Archers - even when the ai had champions blocking the city - every turn bombard - very view attacks (i had about 8 archers myself there - some axeman, horses, disciples, catapults, 3 Great Commandes watching over them. - but it was just a question of time that i would fail... to many of them - and counterattacks always costed much units - with no big effect. - one step outside the City and i'v been bombed to dust from 3 races... I didn't have the tech for Wizards/Fireballs/Storm whatever - it never came to it - even with about 30 Units in the City they killed it. I simple wasn't used to this new style of - long - war. I thought ok - let's how this works out.

No first rush possible anymore - because the ai goes for archers VERY soon. In ffh2 if a enemy was like 10 turns away - i always tried to rush it with about 12 warriors - now this time is too long - 1 archers ruins the rush. even with 12 axemen your chances drop to like nothing, even with champions you have bad chances. - so yes, i think archers are overpowered. They were strong before - without bombarding. But with bombard this getting really a ultimate defense for a long time.

And as multiplayer - i always play with friends nearly every day... reload etc. is not acceptable. there is always somthing going on - and as no rush is possible it is imminant to build settlers to fortify your possition. Less time to build warriors. Less time to build everything - and less time to scout around with a stack of warriors/recons to kill all the lairs (they are no thread anyway) - for fortresses - they pop often too - you need min. 3 archers & 3 warriors/axemen - if you bombard them - they leave the fortress - funny thing, if there is a saver spot nearby (they love hill+wood) - if you don't finish them off - they will come later (when you don't need it) and pillage everything - best thing when in a war - far away with your troops.

So whatever - now i'm more used to it. i can handle it better - but in the start it's really annoying. And my friends felt the same way several times....I heard them say: "ah... with 8 axemen i will crush this little archer..." and then they are really f...ed.

Maybe it's just a change in gameplay, but for sure it's a little bit unusual.

Well i play Immortal/Deity and i use to beeline axemen but AI gets Archers before that now, so instead i beeline Rangers, theres normally lots of Barbarians about so i train them up on those getting XP, usually i also capture a few animals too which can be used as fodder, or when its a elephant it can be used as a mini hero because its got that much strength, and the AI rarely has many recon units about, (and i've never seen it beeline rangers) This makes it possible to grab a few cities off the AI, beyond that i get catapults and if you keep around a dozen catapults in your stack nothing will be able to stop you.. especially with great commanders now, i keep getting lots of free recruits every now and then.

 

[Pohlmann]

i dont know how u can not be successful with axemen.

beeline rok.
tech for arete
build bambur and mines of gal dur.

-> 6 str +20% str axemen/kilmorph soldiers.
then take construction and build 2 catapults.

take over luchuirp hillside cities with large numbers of slingers

 

[WarKirby]

Early rushes in FF are harder than FFH. I don't see this as a general problem, although it can be specifically annoying when playing a civ geared towards early rush, like doviello or Clan of Embers. For anyone else, I think it's fine. I'd say those civs might need a little anti-archer strength early on, rather than tweaking archers generally.

 

[Grimz101]

i dont know how u can not be successful with axemen.

beeline rok.
tech for arete
build bambur and mines of gal dur.

-> 6 str +20% str axemen/kilmorph soldiers.
then take construction and build 2 catapults.

take over luchuirp hillside cities with large numbers of slingers

Good idea i've never tried that, usually i go FOL then build their disciples which have medic, then give them march and upgrade them to rangers to make a superstack that doesn't waste time healing.
Im going to trying that approach next game though.

 

[xienwolf]

Early rush needs to be accompanied with an attack against their economy IMO. Instead of stocking the warriors in your city to send at them, you move out as soon as you have a stack of 3 and fortify on the highest yield square in their workable radius. Repeat each time you get a new stack of 3, possibly smack their units from time to time if you see a nice opportunity (like right after a Barbarian attack, which will only happen if they approach from the opposite side of the city to where you are camping).


Do this and you should cripple their growth enough to prevent any reasonable Tech Rate, and then you'll have enough units to crush them.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Do this and you should cripple their growth enough to prevent any reasonable Tech Rate, and then you'll have enough units to crush them.

Yeah, that's right. Their tech rate is improved from the old days. Gotta remember that.