Fall Further Plus

[Valkrionn]

haha yes, they are fun... The Awakened issue is just the display, by the way. A result of my adding the Adventurer display... Need to nest them both in an if/elif statement, I think, because right now it'll run through it, and then kill it for the adventurers.

 

[Valkrionn]

Easier to fix than I thought... Was exactly what I thought it was, and was fixed exactly like I said. Had been expecting the code to fight back some more, as usual, but it went down easy for once.

Here's a quickfix for the spawn displays... Allows it to function for both Scions and Grigori. Shouldn't hurt save games, and is also available on the first post. View attachment 216392

 

[deadliver]

Hey so I am playing the minor evil Khazad leader, is there a guide somewhere about what traits you can gain based off of what techs?\
edit: nevermind found it!

 

[Valkrionn]

Hey so I am playing the minor evil Khazad leader, is there a guide somewhere about what traits you can gain based off of what techs?

Post #3 in this thread. I'm going to add a concepts section about it like Orbis did... That list needs to be updated, as there's a chance to gain swashbuckler as well, but I haven't gotten around to that. Should be complete otherwise... Swashbuckler comes at Sailing, I believe.

 

[far_wanderer]

I've found a few more minor issues in a Mechanos game:
1 - Goliath in melee form (and presumably Vultures) cannot be Repaired. I suspect this is due to Repair looking at unit class, rather than mechanical status, because Goliath in siege mode can be Repaired.
2 - Until you find a new model for him, Goliath should probably be reduced in size a bit - his fortify animation currently has him stepping almost two full squares outside his actual position.
3 - Witch Hunters with Sanctify is cool, but they could use the autocast version too.
4 - I would recommend removing the unit class change from Goliath - having two promotion paths is confusing, mirco-management intensive, and has the potential for being really overpowered (I'm exceed a strength of 134 in the combat odds display now). Plus, in siege mode he can't pick up items.
5 - Not really a bug, but more of an unintended consequence - Maer has a 50% chance for Spiritual right away, because you found a religion with your first city. It works perfectly for her, but it's something to keep in mind when it's time for the White Hand.
6 - Could the three weapon tiers become available if you have a superior resource? I had only copper and mithril this game, and it was bugging me that all of my bronze/iron only units were stuck with bronze even though I could make better weapons.
7 - Did you change anything related to the Blight code? Off of two blights, I was at 100 unhealth. I had built a sewer and world-buildered in a demonic citizens as a test, so all of that unhealth was generated from only the 2 that power gave. It seems a bit extreme.

 

[Valkrionn]

I've found a few more minor issues in a Mechanos game:
1 - Goliath in melee form (and presumably Vultures) cannot be Repaired. I suspect this is due to Repair looking at unit class, rather than mechanical status, because Goliath in siege mode can be Repaired.
2 - Until you find a new model for him, Goliath should probably be reduced in size a bit - his fortify animation currently has him stepping almost two full squares outside his actual position.
3 - Witch Hunters with Sanctify is cool, but they could use the autocast version too.
4 - I would recommend removing the unit class change from Goliath - having two promotion paths is confusing, mirco-management intensive, and has the potential for being really overpowered (I'm exceed a strength of 134 in the combat odds display now). Plus, in siege mode he can't pick up items.
5 - Not really a bug, but more of an unintended consequence - Maer has a 50% chance for Spiritual right away, because you found a religion with your first city. It works perfectly for her, but it's something to keep in mind when it's time for the White Hand.
6 - Could the three weapon tiers become available if you have a superior resource? I had only copper and mithril this game, and it was bugging me that all of my bronze/iron only units were stuck with bronze even though I could make better weapons.
7 - Did you change anything related to the Blight code? Off of two blights, I was at 100 unhealth. I had built a sewer and world-buildered in a demonic citizens as a test, so all of that unhealth was generated from only the 2 that power gave. It seems a bit extreme.

1. Unitcombat, so vultures can't be repaired either. Not sure whether or not to 'fix' it... seems more of a balance question than not.
2. I know. I just love him being huge. He's smaller in the patch I'm working on.
3. Again, balance question. I don't want them to have an easy time of preventing hell terrain... To me, the Mechanos should be actively purging the world rather than allowing the AC to get high enough to spread through neutral land.
4. I probably need to tone it down, but I'm leaving it in. I believe he's the only hero to change unitcombat, so it makes him more unique than just being a superpowered hero.
5. Haha, I had not thought about that... I'm okay with it, but you're right, something to think about for the Illians.
6. Seems reasonable to make Iron Weapons require Iron OR Mithril, and Copper require Copper, Iron, or Mithril.
7. I did not, actually. It's been doing the same for base FF.

 

[deadliver]

When having my hawk fly as the evil khazad leader it crashes the game, this is repeatable no matter where I stick him.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think somewhere along the way the first DLL I made got reintroduced... Sadly, that means that I don't have the correct code, so for now I can not fix the hawks.

 

[WarKirby]

1. Unitcombat, so vultures can't be repaired either. Not sure whether or not to 'fix' it... seems more of a balance question than not.

You should fix it. Have the Mechanical promotion as one of the prereqs Golems have this too, including the mythril golem. So I wouldn't worry about balance issues.

4. I probably need to tone it down, but I'm leaving it in. I believe he's the only hero to change unitcombat, so it makes him more unique than just being a superpowered hero.

I agree. It is unique and special. But, I think he should be blocked from some promotions. The Siege Combat I-V for a start. And probably anything else that adds +% strength.

As a general rule, try not to make him more powerful than a dragon, either in starting power or potential. If at any point, goliath could beat Eurabatres in a fair fight (ie, same level) then you're doing something wrong.

6. Seems reasonable to make Iron Weapons require Iron OR Mithril, and Copper require Copper, Iron, or Mithril.

It seems pretty silly to me, personally. I think the most logical way of doing it would be to allow any and all weapon-using units access to mythril weapons. And perhaps making them harder to get (a gold cost for the promotion) as a balancing factor.


Anyways, some other stuff.

1. I think Lenora needs some cargo space. I wanted to use it as the flagship of my fleet, but I ended up having to use Skeleton crew and Expanded hull, just to get a meagre two spaces. Just enough for Feris and a Techpriest. By the way, having Feris snipe people from atop a zeppelin is awesome. I've got her powerful enough to one-shot many weaker units.

2. A cargo zeppelin is needed in general. Give it 0 (but still have refined mana affinity) and 6 cargo spaces. Queen of the Line UU.

3. When are you going to fix the art? Feel free to use my patch as a base. And hopefully release a non-save-breaking FFPlus patch in the near future ?

4. Can't remember if I already mentioned this, but I think flamethrowers and grenadiers should be swapped. Flamethrowers seem far more suited to a Berserker UU than grenadiers. Especially given the collateral damage. If you've ever played TF2, you'd understand.

 

[WarKirby]

Oh, another point.

Playing as Dtesh, I'm having some issues defending my territory. Mainly because most of it has a -25% defence modifier, which allows barbarians to appear out of nowhere, and kill my troops before I know what's going on.

I'm thinking the Dteshi need a bit of extra defence in deserts. Maybe add +15% desert defence to their special promos.

Also, I think Graveyards should have a defensive modifier. maybe +20% or so. since they'd be able to summon more skeletal minions and such to fight off invaders. And also have gravestones to hide behind.

 

[far_wanderer]

3. Again, balance question. I don't want them to have an easy time of preventing hell terrain... To me, the Mechanos should be actively purging the world rather than allowing the AC to get high enough to spread through neutral land.
6. Seems reasonable to make Iron Weapons require Iron OR Mithril, and Copper require Copper, Iron, or Mithril.

3 - I think you misunderstood me if you think it's a balance question. Autocast adds a promotion that makes a unit automatically cast Sanctify at the end of the turn if it hasn't cast any other spells. It in no way affects balance, it is entirely a micro-management issue.
6 - Precisely what I was suggesting. Thank you for clarifying.

4. I probably need to tone it down, but I'm leaving it in. I believe he's the only hero to change unitcombat, so it makes him more unique than just being a superpowered hero.

I agree. It is unique and special. But, I think he should be blocked from some promotions. The Siege Combat I-V for a start. And probably anything else that adds +% strength.

As a general rule, try not to make him more powerful than a dragon, either in starting power or potential. If at any point, goliath could beat Eurabatres in a fair fight (ie, same level) then you're doing something wrong.

I agree that Siege Combat is the balance issue. But if you remove it siege mode Goliath has access to Drill 1 & 2. If you pick up Combat 1-5 in melee mode first, he can also learn Heroic Strength/Defense. That's it. Having to switch modes in order to pick up items, explore dungeons, and buy promotions is really irritating and makes little sense. Changing between two modes is definitely cool, I wouldn't change that, but changing unit class is adding a lot of problems.

Semi-related note: is it possible to allow Lenora to pick up items?

 

[Valkrionn]

You should fix it. Have the Mechanical promotion as one of the prereqs Golems have this too, including the mythril golem. So I wouldn't worry about balance issues.

actually, I don't know that they do... Was added for the Mechanos, and is granted by their civtrait. Easy to do just by changing the python for the spell a bit though.

I agree. It is unique and special. But, I think he should be blocked from some promotions. The Siege Combat I-V for a start. And probably anything else that adds +% strength.

As a general rule, try not to make him more powerful than a dragon, either in starting power or potential. If at any point, goliath could beat Eurabatres in a fair fight (ie, same level) then you're doing something wrong.

I agree. I want him on par with Abashi, below Eurabatres.

It seems pretty silly to me, personally. I think the most logical way of doing it would be to allow any and all weapon-using units access to mythril weapons. And perhaps making them harder to get (a gold cost for the promotion) as a balancing factor.

Issue there is some units should not have all weapons as a balance factor. Nearly ALL mechanos uu's are able to gain bronze and iron promos. Adeptus, Techpriests, archery line replacements, even the horse archer. Mithril is blocked as a balancer.

Anyways, some other stuff.

1. I think Lenora needs some cargo space. I wanted to use it as the flagship of my fleet, but I ended up having to use Skeleton crew and Expanded hull, just to get a meagre two spaces. Just enough for Feris and a Techpriest. By the way, having Feris snipe people from atop a zeppelin is awesome. I've got her powerful enough to one-shot many weaker units.

2. A cargo zeppelin is needed in general. Give it 0 (but still have refined mana affinity) and 6 cargo spaces. Queen of the Line UU.

3. When are you going to fix the art? Feel free to use my patch as a base. And hopefully release a non-save-breaking FFPlus patch in the near future ?

4. Can't remember if I already mentioned this, but I think flamethrowers and grenadiers should be swapped. Flamethrowers seem far more suited to a Berserker UU than grenadiers. Especially given the collateral damage. If you've ever played TF2, you'd understand.

1. I think I could give her one or 2 cargo. Mostly for Feris, like you said.
2. I agree. Had forgotten about them... Need unitart for it though. Not a wide selection, sadly.
3. Next patch. Going to have to change your patch a bit, mostly your art actually. I've got it all in art/civs/warkirby. Mostly because I keep my art in the civs folder. Easy for me to remember it all there, as that's where I started adding it. A non-save breaking patch may or may not happen. I refuse to promise anything.
4. You might be right here. You mentioned it before, but I forgot about it.

Oh, another point.

Playing as Dtesh, I'm having some issues defending my territory. Mainly because most of it has a -25% defence modifier, which allows barbarians to appear out of nowhere, and kill my troops before I know what's going on.

I'm thinking the Dteshi need a bit of extra defence in deserts. Maybe add +15% desert defence to their special promos.

Also, I think Graveyards should have a defensive modifier. maybe +20% or so. since they'd be able to summon more skeletal minions and such to fight off invaders. And also have gravestones to hide behind.

I'm thinking it would be good to give them a unique terrain, personally. That way the whole civ isn't filled with flame. Would take care of the defense issues as well.

Not sure here... Although I have been thinking of making it a crypt rather than a graveyard. Using the Haunted Ruin here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11957

 

[Valkrionn]

3 - I think you misunderstood me if you think it's a balance question. Autocast adds a promotion that makes a unit automatically cast Sanctify at the end of the turn if it hasn't cast any other spells. It in no way affects balance, it is entirely a micro-management issue.
6 - Precisely what I was suggesting. Thank you for clarifying.


I agree that Siege Combat is the balance issue. But if you remove it siege mode Goliath has access to Drill 1 & 2. If you pick up Combat 1-5 in melee mode first, he can also learn Heroic Strength/Defense. That's it. Having to switch modes in order to pick up items, explore dungeons, and buy promotions is really irritating and makes little sense. Changing between two modes is definitely cool, I wouldn't change that, but changing unit class is adding a lot of problems.

Semi-related note: is it possible to allow Lenora to pick up items?

I find it a balance issue mostly because I don't want it to be easy. If it takes micro, then you're more likely to go for the root cause.

Actually, he'd have drill 3 and 4 also. They're allowed by the same promo that allows siege combat. I may end up just removing the unitclass from the promotion, as it doesn't add much aside from a large bonus vs Monstrous Creatures, which he doesn't need.

I don't know actually. Maybe do something similiar to fort commanders, in that she has a constant unit in her cargo that cannot be removed? Would allow that unit to pick up items, at the least.

 

[Sarisin]

Oh, another point.

Playing as Dtesh, I'm having some issues defending my territory. Mainly because most of it has a -25% defence modifier, which allows barbarians to appear out of nowhere, and kill my troops before I know what's going on.

I'm thinking the Dteshi need a bit of extra defence in deserts. Maybe add +15% desert defence to their special promos.

Also, I think Graveyards should have a defensive modifier. maybe +20% or so. since they'd be able to summon more skeletal minions and such to fight off invaders. And also have gravestones to hide behind.

I mentioned the spawning of barb units inside borders previously. I haven't seen this with any civ in FF+ except the d'Tesh.

I don't think beefing up the terrain would work as the barbs have a knack for spawning right next to Watchers and killing them. It requires you to escort you Watchers at all times, but even that doesn't always work. One time an early barb Lizard Ranger spawned and killed the Hunter and Watchers.

How about this? Make the Watchers invisible like the recon line?

 

[Valkrionn]

How about this? Make the Watchers invisible like the recon line?

Already planning on it, at least for desert/whatever I switch them to. Doing so for most terrain dependent civs... Malakim have it for desert, Illians and Doviello have it for snow/tundra.

 

[Sarisin]

V, I realized you just borrowed the d'Tesh civ from Mailbox's work, but I would like to suggest something simple that would make them a lot more playable and not at all overpowered IMO.

Let ALL the units (including melee and mounted) gain XP and promotions like the other civs. I really don't see the rationale behind blocking these and making the units fairly useless.

Yes, I know you can add strength by more death mana, but that isn't always easy to do and you might want to have other mana besides Death. Also, if you play with the option of fixed mana nodes you usually cannot add more Death mana. You can also gain XP/promotions from Training Yards and Jousting Arenas and stronger weapons help. But, not gaining experience from combat really is a downer.

So, I think giving all the units the ability to gain XP/promotions would make the d'Tesh much more interesting and fun to play. I can't see how this would make the d'Tesh a powerhouse.

Otherwise, I think the strategy is to avoid melee/mounted units, buildings, wonders, etc. and that drops out a big part of the game.

 

[Sarisin]

One question on the d'Tesh:

I know the recon units cannot defend in a stack because of their invisibility, but can they defend in a d'Teshi city? Are they visible in a city?

I never tested this out in my game.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm not sure I want to change them in such a fundamental way, but I might play with it a little.

As for recon defending, I *believe* invisible units are visible in cities. At least, they are for the esus style invisibility.

 

[WarKirby]

I find it a balance issue mostly because I don't want it to be easy. If it takes micro, then you're more likely to go for the root cause.

This is a really bad idea.

You can't use interface to punish the user for using an unbalanced ability. Give them the full capability of sanctify, or don't.

It's like creating a nuclear missile spell, but calling it balanced because a hand comes out of your PC and punches the user, every time they use it.

If you think sanctify is too powerful, why not try giving them a "lesser sanctify". Rather than instantly clearing a 3x3 area, it would just have a 50% chance per square, to clean. Retaining the same radius of effect, but only being half as effective.

 

[deadliver]

This is a really bad idea.

You can't use interface to punish the user for using an unbalanced ability. Give them the full capability of sanctify, or don't.

It's like creating a nuclear missile spell, but calling it balanced because a hand comes out of your PC and punches the user, every time they use it.

If you think sanctify is too powerful, why not try giving them a "lesser sanctify". Rather than instantly clearing a 3x3 area, it would just have a 50% chance per square, to clean. Retaining the same radius of effect, but only being half as effective.

Hell no! More micro management is bad if it is unnecessary! In this case, adding auto sancti was added for a reason, do not take it away from some civs and grant it to others. Or as Warkirby said, you are using the interface to punish certain civ players.

Better you make the commands dos-based than take away the autocast thingies.

P.S. Don't make any commands dos-based that was simply an argument not a challenge!