Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Vehem]

I reloaded that game and switched to another Tech to be researched (besides Horseback Riding). I still get a CTD in the exact same manner. There's obviously something happening that's not agreeing with my computer. I don't think it's memory-related since I've been running other games with Fall Further that reach (so far) Turn 500+ without any apparent issue. I've also run a good number of "standard" FfH games to full completion. The only thing I can conclude is that your modmod does not work with just any machine (perhaps a config issue?) I understand you cannot duplicate the mishap, but it doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Aye, just means it is a PITA to track down But fortunately we have at least one rather dedicated Beta Tester here helping us to possibly isolate it What kind of system are you running? In case others find mystery crashes and might line up in the Spec/OS department.

The other diagnostic that is helpful is one of elimination. Try using world builder to erase a large portion of the other civilizations (I tend to wipe them out, except for one city) and see if the problem persists. If it doesn't, then we've narrowed it down to being one of the other civs causing the problem.

Then reload the save and eliminate the other civs one at a time, trying to find out which one is actually at fault. If removing a particular civ fixes the problem then we've narrowed it down again.

Then try removing that civs cities/units a few at a time - if there's a specific city or unit that can be identified as the troublemaker, we've pretty much identified the problem.

==

There isn't really any machine-dependent config generally in Civ4 mods as Civ4 is supposed to handle that on it's own. We do know however that it doesn't do that perfectly, which is normally when things like this crop up. What I described above is pretty much what I do if I get a reproducible crash in order to narrow it down. If doesn't crash on my machine, I have to rely on someone who can make it do so.

EDIT: I looked at the save again and saw that Hyborem is in game - the Infernals might be the first civ you want to try removing in world builder. In the past in both FF and FfH people have reported issues that are resolved by deleting the Infernals though I've never been able to reproduce it using their saves (and I think Kael had the same problem).

 

[woodelf]

Not just the infernals, but the land/graphics that come with them.

 

[odalrick]

After carefully cultivating my precious Elephant, saving 8 experience and researching Warfare, I find out that it cant get City Raider promotions. Have I missed something?

 

[Foxl]

Anyone else facing huge war elephant armys?
Playing as Falamar/Lanun I'm was in a war with Shelba and killed 12 of them, now I'm at war with Dannmos (sneaky bastard) and I also killed 2. And he seems to have a lot of them too.

 

[Ekolite]

Yes, they seem to be buildable at Animal Husbandry. When I first saw it I thought the AI had become so advanced that they had managed to capture an ELephant and upgrade it. Shame .

 

[Ambreville]

The other diagnostic that is helpful is one of elimination. Try using world builder to erase a large portion of the other civilizations (I tend to wipe them out, except for one city) and see if the problem persists. If it doesn't, then we've narrowed it down to being one of the other civs causing the problem.

Then reload the save and eliminate the other civs one at a time, trying to find out which one is actually at fault. If removing a particular civ fixes the problem then we've narrowed it down again.

Then try removing that civs cities/units a few at a time - if there's a specific city or unit that can be identified as the troublemaker, we've pretty much identified the problem.

==

There isn't really any machine-dependent config generally in Civ4 mods as Civ4 is supposed to handle that on it's own. We do know however that it doesn't do that perfectly, which is normally when things like this crop up. What I described above is pretty much what I do if I get a reproducible crash in order to narrow it down. If doesn't crash on my machine, I have to rely on someone who can make it do so.

EDIT: I looked at the save again and saw that Hyborem is in game - the Infernals might be the first civ you want to try removing in world builder. In the past in both FF and FfH people have reported issues that are resolved by deleting the Infernals though I've never been able to reproduce it using their saves (and I think Kael had the same problem).

DING! DING! DING!

You were right, it was Hyborem. I removed Hyborem and the city in which he stood, and the CTD did not take place.

Bad demon! No more evil kibbles and bits for you!

-------------------------------------------

EDIT

For ref, here is the system I use.

Spoiler :

OS Name Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional
Version 5.0.2195 Service Pack 4 Build 2195
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name DRAGON
System Manufacturer BIOSTA
System Model AWRDACPI
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 1 AuthenticAMD ~1799 Mhz
BIOS Version Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Windows Directory C:\WINNT
Locale United States
Time Zone Central Daylight Time
Total Physical Memory 1,310,192 KB
Available Physical Memory 890,448 KB
Total Virtual Memory 5,630,916 KB
Available Virtual Memory 4,818,064 KB
Page File Space 4,320,724 KB

Not much, but it served me well!

 

[XplorR]

Anyone else facing huge war elephant armys?
Playing as Falamar/Lanun I'm was in a war with Shelba and killed 12 of them, now I'm at war with Dannmos (sneaky bastard) and I also killed 2. And he seems to have a lot of them too.

Did you enable the option "NO AI Level requirements" when you made the map?

I did and then went to war with the Hippus and got inundated with War Elephants. This option allows them to directly build them rather than promoting appropriate level 1+ units. It makes for an interesting, albeit dangerous game.

 

[A_Hamster]

After carefully cultivating my precious Elephant, saving 8 experience and researching Warfare, I find out that it cant get City Raider promotions. Have I missed something?

Check what promotions it can get in the 'pedia. Not all units can get City Raider, and usually Mounted units can't.

 

[Vehem]

Did you enable the option "NO AI Level requirements" when you made the map?

I did and then went to war with the Hippus and got inundated with War Elephants. This option allows them to directly build them rather than promoting appropriate level 1+ units. It makes for an interesting, albeit dangerous game.

Well spotted - it's not quite what Xienwolf had in mind for that game option . We'll work something out to deal with that.

Aside from that however - how is the "No Level Requirements" working out for the AI? Are they creating Mages/Archmages appropriately? It's pretty much a stopgap measure as with the "No Building Requirements" that Kael added - as the AI improves there should be less need for either.

Check what promotions it can get in the 'pedia. Not all units can get City Raider, and usually Mounted units can't.

If I remember rightly, it's just Melee that get City Raider promotions. Mounted units are more oriented around withdrawl chance and additional mobility.

DING! DING! DING!

You were right, it was Hyborem. I removed Hyborem and the city in which he stood, and the CTD did not take place.

Bad demon! No more evil kibbles and bits for you!

Good that we've found the cause there, though I suspect Kael has the same problem as Xien and I do when it comes to tracing the cause of the Hyborem thing - I think he said that some saves that were posted didn't crash for him either...

 

[Foxl]

Did you enable the option "NO AI Level requirements" when you made the map?

I did and then went to war with the Hippus and got inundated with War Elephants. This option allows them to directly build them rather than promoting appropriate level 1+ units. It makes for an interesting, albeit dangerous game.

Oh I didn't know that and yes it makes the early phase in epic games much more "interessting". And Hippus with war elephants if it is tasunke i would give up (saves time)

 

[arcticnightwolf]

is it possible to get this for FfH 20 ?
please

pre-BTS ..heh?

 

[Vehem]

Oh I didn't know that and yes it makes the early phase in epic games much more "interessting". And Hippus with war elephants if it is tasunke i would give up (saves time)

I've just recoded the War Elephant mechanic to be a spell;

• Only castable by Elephants
• Must be inside own borders
• Costs 100 gold
• Requires Horseback Riding
• Converts unit to War Elephant

That should work as well as the old method did.

===

While I was at it, I increased the AiWeight for the "Subdue" promotions. Now Recon units will see it as being a valuable option and should take it when they get chance. This may help to address the fact that the AI wasn't taming Elephants or animals in general.

I decided that taking Subdue Animal in preference to Combat 3 was a fair choice for a unit that will spend most of its time on AI_EXPLORE and especially as there is now no time limit on Animal Spawns.

===

It'll be included in the next patch.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It would probably be wise to make the War Elephant spell also remove the HN promotion.


I'm not sure, but I think that Mages and Archmages will need higher AI weights if you want them to be built even without the level requirements.

 

[odalrick]

Check what promotions it can get in the 'pedia. Not all units can get City Raider, and usually Mounted units can't.

Elephant is Animal who can get City Raider according to the civilopedia. That is why I wanted to get them before upgrading to War elephant.

 

[Vehem]

Elephant is Animal who can get City Raider according to the civilopedia. That is why I wanted to get them before upgrading to War elephant.

Did you have Warfare? (prereq for City Raider)

 

[xienwolf]

I've been working slowly on the DLL to make the AIWeight tags no longer needed. I haven't checked to be certain, but I am reasonably sure that the AI checks the Weight value of each Free Promotion on a Unit and adds that to the consideration for upgrading/building it. If that is the case you should see more Casters in general because anything which grants free XP gives a decent boost based on how much potential XP you can get from it. Thus seeing Channeling 1/2/3 should skyrocket the Weight value quite nicely.

 

[Ambreville]

Here's another loop I ran into (I didn't see if this was already discussed earlier -- if so, please ignore).

Two things Blood of the Phoenix did that it should not have:

1. It activated every single one of my living units, breaking their previously assigned commands (goto, fortifications, auto-build for workers, etc).

2. It removed the workers' automated commands from the unit interface. There is no way for me to automate my workers anymore. That's a big problem, considering how many of them I have at this point!

 

[Ambreville]

A minor issue -- the unit graphics doesn't always change when giving a unit a pegasus. Example: a champion was changed to the rider on pegasus graphics, but heroes weren't. I had both Arthendain and Bambur with pegasi, and without any graphic change.

Really cool spell, though. I don't recall seeing this in FfH. Is this a Fall Further addition? If so, kudos! That was a great idea. Any chance that something like could be done with dragons? I'd love to mount one of my lizardman champions on top of that Wyvern! I know this is really pushing it, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

---------------------------

EDIT

This brings up the notion of a new race a la Dragonriders of Pern!

 

[woodelf]

I couldn't capture it on a screenie, but I hovered over the Promote Unit Accuracy icon for a catapult and it said -200gp support cost/turn along with the +20% city bombard. I assumed it was a glitch and hit the promotion and my support actually got worse by more than 200gp/turn. Not sure if this is an FfH issue or FF.

 

[xienwolf]

That would be one of my new fields. And it modified by more than 200 because of your handicap settings most likely, all additional support costs are tweaked based on Handicap.

Though Accuracy really ought not to have that field set, and nothing ought to be set THAT high But sure enough, it is set in the XML. Just open CIV4PromotionInfos.xml, search for Accuracy (or 200) and delete that entire line. Then you'll be good to go.


I am pretty sure that the Pegasus is done by going to a completely new unit graphic, as such a lot of work has to be done for each Graphic that gains a Pegasus Riding version. If a kindly artist who was masterful at animations and bone work would rig it up so that the mount worked like a weapon it would be easier to do a universal rig which applies to everyone (like picking up Orthus's Axe), but it would look really wierd, as you cannot (to my knowledge) move the Unit higher in the air that way, so you'd need a small horse, or you'd only be able to see the rider from the chest up poking out of the horse's back.


Blood of the Pheonix issue kinda sucks. Will look into what is causing it. Did reloading your game clear the issue?




Note for people using the FfH DLL Source: I have uploaded a new version which is stable and includes additional work detailed in my MODCOMP thread. Schema's and needed Python bits you'll have to wait for the next patch to get (or a MODCOMP update), but you could merge the DLL now if you are wanting to use any of the new fields.


EDIT: Tested Blood of the Pheonix. Reloading does not return Automation capability, and it is the Ritual causing the issue, not the Promotion. Will look into how the ritual is handled.

EDIT 2: Nevermind, it is the promotion, just not until the start of your turn. I set it up so that any Unit with the Immortal Promotion would be set for UnitAI_City_Attack so that the AI would be more aggressive with them. Problem is that apparently it activates your units if you are a human and the unitAI changes, as well as only offering you automation if your workers are set for UnitAI_Worker. That'll be fixed in the next patch.