Fan of theocracy?

[Live trash can]

Anyone else here fan of Theocracy? Either in game or outside of Civ 4...

I think religious ways of doing things are exciting. I try to follow the motto:
Bring the physical forward with the spiritual.

But getting religious men into ruling position can be difficult. Might be the result of a revolution which brings a lot of risk.

And if priests or godly men were to rule, then maybe power would corrupt? Maybe democracy is the safest bet!

 

[plasmacannon]

Power tends to corrupt regardless of the political or economic system.
The federal government employee that can't be fired, that manipulates things in their department based on their political beliefs within the law, rather than the intent of their country's elected leaders.
Like someone in a business who uses knowledge of insider trading for friends but not for self or family members is harder to trace.
A technology company that drops it's price on a highly competitive product, forcing other manufacturers to go under when they do the same. This does little to help the customers of those now failed manufacturers facing a near monopoly now, nor it's jobless former employees.
A Human Resources guy where I once worked was eventually fired when it was found out that he was hiring several women that he slept with regardless of their qualifications and continued to harass them afterwards.
Someone doesn't have to be religious to be corrupt.
As far as Civ4 goes, the benefits of the Theocracy civic could be changed to better suit what you think it should be.
Many mods have done this already.

 

[Live trash can]

Yes, I think there is a lot of corruption. But I try not to think too much about it

Maybe if it were more rampant I would have to ,

At least, in the "Western" societies, there is an understanding that the rulers should rule in favour of the ruled. This is comforting. If we go back to the Middle Ages, some people had mostly an unlimited power (I think).


Hmm... if you stay true to some principles of not being corrupt, you COULD make a career out of this! You can be trusted with more responsibility! My former medical doctor got a job of monitoring other doctors after a long times service as a normal doctor.

 

[elmurcis]

I usually avoid saying anything about people beliefs. But when it comes to religion as a system - its just another way of "politics", just with trying to talk to "soul/heart" instead of pretty clear brain/pocket/lifestyle (as usual political stuff and all around it).
So up to some point if overall society education and traditions level is kind of... "Stone aged", any kind of "full range" religion organization actually could give better benefits vs some "democratic stuff" where some popular person with some crazy talking skills gets best results. Do nothing for years and talk again after that to get new term. For empire people who had not enough power to have serious impact to future, should be controlled from top to make this machinery working smooth and easy. That way churches etc. stuff works brilliant as it makes people more focused (work hard and get into heaven! Be lazy and burn somewhere...) and decrease impact of "wild" lifestyle (drinking, many many partners, fighting just for... "fun" etc.,).
When it comes to more "modern-like education and traditions level" - it won't work as well just because of amount of information available. Many still would keep believes as kind of... "safe harbor from everything" but it won't be only source of life knowledge. So here democracy can shine more than some religious stuff. And it is very possible that same time one country "needs" theocracy type of government to catch up with democratic type of government that already has reached some kind of saturation point where even de-evolution of society start taking place (getting lazy, living "wild lifestyle", making very limited impact on overall country development etc.). Just my 5 cents for this as I have seen in my life.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Moved to Off Topic as it is about religion and not the game.

 

[Synobun]

This thread will be a mess.

I'll get it started. I'm staunchly anti-religion, so by proxy I am also anti-theocracy.

 

[Berzerker]

in theory I'd expect a theology to be a decent form of government driven by spiritual concerns like WWJD, in practice its just evil hiding under a halo

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Priests don't need to go into politics to be corrupted.
Being part of a church hierarchy is already enough.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Rule by an actual omniscient and omnibenevolent God might be the best for of government, but the rule of fallible mortals who claim that their dominance hierarchy is justified by the will of God is perhaps the worst.

 

[Cutlass]

When government is run by people who claim to speak for god, the most vile, corrupt, and evil, people will claim they speak for god.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The world does not have many Theocracies now that I look.

How odd
Thought there would be more.

 

[FriendlyFire]

And if priests or godly men were to rule, then maybe power would corrupt? Maybe democracy is the safest bet!

At the height of Papula power, the popes were busy have sex with prostitutes and assassinating each other
The one time they did elevate a godly pious man into the pope, they found him lacking in political skills and over threw him by pretending to be the holy spirit sending him a divine message to resign which he did promptly.

I suggest you have a read up on the Spanish inquisition and how quickly it became corrupt
Actually you only have to look at how Evangelicals today busy lining their own pockets with cash, airplanes while living the life of luxury to give you an idea how well a theocracy would look like.

 

[Mouthwash]

I think any society not based on religious principles will end up as a horror show (we're in a brief interregnum where secular society doesn't seem so bad, but it will get worse). I'd like to see the central government as a theocracy, but having very limited power to enforce those principles on the population. Its symbolic power will have positive effects, and it won't have much opportunity to fall into the traps theocratic societies usually fall into.

This isn't that far from the position of some of the American Founding Fathers, but they made the mistake of believing God could be removed from traditional religion.

 

[Live trash can]

I think at least it is exciting, with theocracies

I have ordered a small book about the theocracies of the history of the world. Mostly as a fun enterprise.

And I am a bit worried that what Mouthwash says is true. Nice call Mouthwash!

From what I have read, religions on the globe as a whole is not declining. I find the rejection of the Christian religion in the west somewhat fruitful.

 

[Farm Boy]

Rule by an actual omniscient and omnibenevolent God might be the best for of government, but the rule of fallible mortals who claim that their dominance hierarchy is justified by the will of God is perhaps the worst.

The people are better when they're beholden to goodnesses larger than themselves. Rulers of people are better when they're responsible to those people.

I don't know about the complete accuracy of your latter assertion. It's mostly true, but in that situation they could be accused of being wrong rather than simply not dominant enough to silence all opposition. Hypocrisy is at least possible. There's always lower.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Theocracy works in civ when you have immortal god kings with full knowledge of the tech tree and have a good stockpile of faith.

Otherwise it is for noobs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

IRL not so much.

In civ it really depends on the game. It was situational in Civ 4, but the extra promotion out of the gate could be worth and at significantly less opportunity cost than giving up bureaucracy in favor of vassalage. Piety tree in Civ 5 is pretty junky, and it's implemented pretty differently in 6.

Fundamentalism in Civ 2 was pretty lulzy.

 

[plasmacannon]

It sounds like it is in need of improvement.
Such as, Builds Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals and Missionaries 50% faster.
-1 per Temple, Monastery, Cathedral in the city.
+1 Relations with empires having the same religion. -1 Relations with empires having a different religion.
All units build get +2xp.

 

[Live trash can]

It sounds like it is in need of improvement

I haven't actually played Civ that much. The +2 experience points sounds quite powerful to me! Or isn't it?

Theocracy works in civ when you have immortal god kings with full knowledge of the tech tree and have a good stockpile of faith.

Otherwise it is for noobs.

I believe Tibet and Bhutan have produced some valuable things. Not the least Tibet's former poitical leader Dalai Lama. They are a valuable change from all the materialist governments in the world in my opinion.

Other than that, I find my recent excursions into theocracy to have been illuminating. It was done to the backdrop of democracy, I and it is to democracy I return. Just brushing it off as noobish I find is a bit dangerous.

So, are critics of theocracy mere fetishists in love with their own dark sides? Not necessarily because I am somewhat of a critic myself. But there is something to it

 

[Kozmos]

I think any society not based on religious principles will end up as a horror show (we're in a brief interregnum where secular society doesn't seem so bad, but it will get worse). I'd like to see the central government as a theocracy, but having very limited power to enforce those principles on the population. Its symbolic power will have positive effects, and it won't have much opportunity to fall into the traps theocratic societies usually fall into.

As opposed to governments based on religious principles like SA or Iran? If secular governments end up as horror shows it will be because of advancement of technology and the semantic apocalypse it brings.