FDNY Tests "Discriminate" against Minorities.

[JollyRoger]

Why discuss the issue at hand when you can accuse other people of racism?

Like the Sotomayor hearings?

 

[Yeekim]

What's the difference between "people of color" and "colored people" anyway? How can one be offensive and the other not?

Better question is, why should either of them be considered offensive?

 

[Flying Pig]

Is there any evidence that the test discriminated against blacks and hispanics, or just that blacks and hispanics in the area are less good at the test?

 

[caketastydelish]

Um, no it's not.

I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic, but apparently not. Sorry

Exactly. And that is why is it not racist. It is heightist and athletist if you will. But if you can play at their level, you are more than welcome to come out and do so. See Larry Bird for further details.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

I never said it was racist, and I don't think anybody else did either. But they have a specific policy that their tests must not favor one ethnic group over another according to some quantitative metric they have all agreed upon, which it apparently did in this particular case. They probably just need to make the test a bit easier so enough blacks and Latinos can pass, or they need to rework some of the questions so it doesn't favor people who like to listen to country music.

Its not a matter of "passing and failing". I don't think they said the blacks and latinos failed (oh and btw one of the highest scorers WAS a latino). The last sentence was just racist. I'm white and I HATE country music. Infact I'd rather listen to rap. Should the NBA reorganize the sport so its "easier for white players" or for "people that don't listen to rap music"? You see how racist that sounds?


But now, the people who do pass are starting to see they can sue the asses off the city and get away with it when the test is screwed up. Isn't this a great country, or what?

Look above to see my post.

 

[Patroklos]

Of course the test isn't biased. It's an inanimate object. Using a test of the sort is the issue. I honestly don't care if a firefighter can spell at a highschool level if his job performance is stellar.

These tests are usually for supervisory positions. These are organizations using tens of millions of dollars in equipmeent and property and comrising dozens of indivituals. It should require the same about of administrative skill as any doctors office or law firm.

If you know how to be a fireman, know how to read, write, can do simple math, and know the specific knowledge required to do the job, what does it matter that you happened to score a bit lower on a specific standardized test?

It does if someone else scored higher. These tests probably have a minimum pass score, and beyond that available billets are filled based totally on highest passing scores. As it should be.

 

[Flying Pig]

Without being racist, it's possible that the blacks in the area just happen to be less good than the whites. In that case, the test isn't racist, so I would like to see evidence that some part of it is more difficult to answer purely by virtue of being black, as opposed to being poorly educated or stupid.

 

[aelf]

Based on my experience in the army, yes, these tests can be biased.

And there are plenty of people who can pass them easily that would make all-round worse soldiers and officers than some people who find them difficult.

 

[Flying Pig]

I fail to see how a test can be biased against people who are identical except one is black.

 

[aelf]

I fail to see how a test can be biased against people who are identical except one is black.

It's not the colour per se. It's the background of the person.

Certain people find it very easy to memorise a bunch of inane facts. Some people find it harder because they are not academically inclined. Many of those facts hardly matter when it comes down to the real thing.

 

[JollyRoger]

It does if someone else scored higher. These tests probably have a minimum pass score, and beyond that available billets are filled based totally on highest passing scores. As it should be.

Assuming you want firefighters based purely on how they do on this written test. An alternative approach would be to have a minimum passing score to qualify for consideration and other things you might want in a fireman would be taken into account from amoung the qualifiers. You wouldn't fill available billets on the Supreme Court or even at a District Attorney's office based purely on bar exam score or law school gpa.

 

[woody60707]

Based on my experience in the army, yes, these tests can be biased.

Based on my experience in the USMC, no, these tests can't be biased.

Aauming you want firefighters based purely on the on they do on this written test. An alternative approach would be to have a minimum passing score to qualify for consideration and other things you might want in a fireman would be taken into account from amoung the qualifiers. You wouldn't fill available billets on the Supreme Court or even at a District Attorney's office based purely on bar exam score or law school gpa.

I would agree with this. BUT that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Your test could lead to the same results. And if they did, they would be just as illegal, right?

 

[aelf]

Based on my experience in the USMC, no, these tests can't be biased.

I gave an explanation. Where's yours?

 

[plarq]

It's because Fire Department is not some elite employer, so merits of those applicants are not the first concern.

You don't see people crying out "racism!" when electing members of American Physics Society, etc.

 

[Patroklos]

Certain people find it very easy to memorise a bunch of inane facts. Some people find it harder because they are not academically inclined. Many of those facts hardly matter when it comes down to the real thing.

Certain people find it easy to memorize important job required facts as well. In the fire world, a lot of those matter (like water pressure to hose length calculations).

Assuming you want firefighters based purely on how they do on this written test. An alternative approach would be to have a minimum passing score to qualify for consideration and other things you might want in a fireman would be taken into account from amoung the qualifiers. You wouldn't fill available billets on the Supreme Court or even at a District Attorney's office based purely on bar exam score or law school gpa.

You are assuming that this written test is the only actual qualifications. In a reality these firefighters probably have to qualify to take the test itself, which includes thinks like time in rate, number/types of fires responded to, qualifying on all equipment, physical fitness evaluations, previous evaluations, disciplinary record, etc.

In the military for instance, not everyone gets to take the test, that is the last of a long list of hurdles.

 

[aelf]

Certain people find it easy to memorize important job required facts as well. In the fire world, a lot of those matter (like water pressure to hose length calculations).

Remembering the stats of a LAW does not really have much bearing on how well a person could use it.

Until we see the actual questions and they prove otherwise, the possibility of bias remains open as far as our opinions are concerned.

 

[capslock]

Remembering the stats of a LAW does not really have much bearing on how well a person could use it.

Until we see the actual questions and they prove otherwise, the possibility of bias remains open as far as our opinions are concerned.

Umm, you better know your weapon system(s) inside and out. Granted, knowledge gained from experience might differ slightly from book knowledge, but you still gotta know it.

Your example sucks.

 

[JollyRoger]

You are assuming that this written test is the only actual qualifications. In a reality these firefighters probably have to qualify to take the test itself, which includes thinks like time in rate, number/types of fires responded to, qualifying on all equipment, physical fitness evaluations, previous evaluations, disciplinary record, etc.

In the military for instance, not everyone gets to take the test, that is the last of a long list of hurdles.

I think that it should perhaps be the first hurdle, not the determining factor in order ranking. Do you really want the most marginal guy from the other factors ranked 1st because he is good at acing written tests? I say that as a person that is good at acing tests, but likely very marginally competent in other things one would be looking for in a firefighter.

 

[caketastydelish]

It's not the colour per se. It's the background of the person.

Certain people find it very easy to memorise a bunch of inane facts. Some people find it harder because they are not academically inclined. Many of those facts hardly matter when it comes down to the real thing.

Wow, where should I start with this?

First, my best friend is black and he memorizes things much better than I can (and makes better grades at school!).

Second, are you an expert on firefighter test? Have you been a firefighter? Are you actually an expert on the matter and know that the questions don't matter or did you just glance at an "online practice test" and say "the questions are stupid". And even so if they are, how is that racially discriminating? It just happened that the highest scorers happened to be white. I can name at least 15 black people off the top of my head that go to my school that generally score much higher than me.

What if almost all or all of the cadidates that scored highest were black? Then would it be racial discrimination?

Seriously, this is completly absurd.

 

[Flying Pig]

Umm, you better know your weapon system(s) inside and out. Granted, knowledge gained from experience might differ slightly from book knowledge, but you still gotta know it.

Your example sucks.

I'm with Pat on this. I can fire just about anything with a trigger that spits death, but I couldn't give a technical disseration on them

 

[Formaldehyde]

Why discuss the issue at hand when you can accuse other people of racism?

Once again, I didn't accuse you of being a racist. I merely pointed out you were using a phrase that is certainly considered by Americans, and apparently most Europeans, to be such. I even suggested that it may be due to the fact you didn't know it was considered that way because you are from Brazil. And now that you do know, you apparently show no desire to stop using it.

So how exactly is using a known derogatory phrase like this on a forum where most of the members are Americans helpful to discussing the issue at hand?