Feminism IVX

So at least in California, it's now an option for the man to take the woman's last name. Although I think this only happened once - the time where they had to sue to make it an option.

And there is no equivalent to Mrs for sure.

I'm not particularly for or against feminism but I honestly want to take up my wife's last name whenever I get married... as long as she has a halfway reasonable one. I hate my last name.
 
Evolutionary psychologists speculate that the women, and more importantly children taking on the name of the husband is to help soothe the man that the kids are actually his (when occasionally they are not).
 
This thought is probably an incorrect one... but I wonder what would have happened if wolves didn't exist? Would we find symbiosis with another species? Would it be a social one? Or something different?
All simians are social. We were social millions of years before we tamed wolfs into dogs.

And for the quoted part: If we didn't have dogs, we simply wouldn't have had dogs.

As we spread throughout the Earth, we've probably tried to eat everything possible, tame anything interesting and generally do all stupid things someone could think of, because, well, because humans! Horses for instance are perfect for carrying people around. Meanwhile there's been tons of people trying to tame and ride Zebras or Llamas, and failing miserably at it.

If wolfs didn't exist, there wouldn't have been another social pack animal to domesticate, and we'd simply lack the concept of man's best friend.

Well. What's so wrong with a little inter-species dating?
You've apparently never seen a non-dominant seal taking it's sexual frustration out on a helpless penguin before maybe also eating it... :undecide:

Both consummation and consumption as it were.

Evolutionary psychologists speculate that the women, and more importantly children taking on the name of the husband is to help soothe the man that the kids are actually his (when occasionally they are not).
Interestingly enough, in Japan and Korea, it's traditional for women to keep their family name even after they're married, and for the kids to get the fathers name (well, as long as one was of a social standing to have a family name that is).
 
I felt bad for not being on topic, so I went back a few pages and found a couple of posts more in line with the thread title:

There are fewer issues in English, but it doesn't mean it's immune.

Far from it. Problematic words include: women (literally wife person), chairman (nowadays chairperson, or simply chair), fireman (nowadays firefighter), and probably a load more that I can't think of for the moment.
I always like to go back to the actual meanings of the words myself, but when you're complaining on this topic, you can't have it both ways. Either you hold to only the modern understanding of a term, or you must allow for both older and newer understandings of the terms to be weighted.

'woman' does not mean 'wife person'. It's from Old English 'wīfman', and means 'female human' (wīf = female, man = human being). [Also, 'wife' simply means 'female (human)', or what today would be termed 'woman']

And with 'man' explained, all your other examples simply resolves into 'chair human (being)', 'fire human (being)'.

The Old English term for 'male human' was 'wer' by the way. It went out of fashion, but is still found in cognates such as 'werewolf' (man-wolf).

And the fact that only married women change their name to their husbands surname (not obligatory but certainly the overwhelming convention) and also indicate their married status with "Mrs".
To some extent I can get the unifying of family name, since they are getting married and thus becoming one single family. And with property rights most commonly passing to the male heir, it seems "logical" that the new family adopts the male's name.

Though I suppose that just kicks the can further down the road, and the question becomes why it is the man who inherits and not the woman?

To that I will simply point to culture, and point a finger and sex- and woman-hating Christianity (or simply bad Middle Eastern cultural imports)! :p

Scandinavian women at least could inherit and had several rights until the introduction of Christianity, though I'm in no way stating that they were "equal" to men.

Oh, and about the Mrs. thing. A quick glance in a dictionary suggests that Mrs. was an abbreviation of mistress, which first started showing up in the 17th century, as a title in front of a woman's surname, an equivalent to Mr. I suppose (I guess until then, only noble women had titles in front of their names?). Didn't use to indicate anything about marital status it seems.

The use of Ms. on the other hand: [Btw, it also is an abbreviation for mistress!]
Ms. came into use in the 1950s as a title before a woman's surname when her marital status was unknown or irrelevant. In the early 1970s, the use of Ms. was adopted and encouraged by the women's movement, the reasoning being that since a man's marital status is not revealed by the title Mr., there is no reason that a woman's status should be revealed by her title. Since then Ms. has gained increasing currency, especially in business and professional use. Some women prefer the traditional Miss (still fully standard for a woman whose marital status is unknown and for an unmarried woman) or, when appropriate, Mrs.
So it seems that at some point Mrs. took on the meaning of a married woman. Seems like a more "correct" way of doing it by the women's movement would have been to insist on the use of Mrs. in all occasions instead. Then again, English has lost the way Mrs. used to be pronounced, so with the similarities we can all simply go over to Ms. and end up at square one again (or square 17th century, I suppose).

Mr. is, as I've written earlier, the equivalent of Mrs. and Ms. (and also Miss.), or in other words, an abbreviation of 'master'.

Master and mistress are simply polite English honorifics you see! ;)

Also, God is almost invariably male.
That's a Jews/Christian/Muslim thing. Blame the bad ancient Middle Eastern culture or something...

Oh, and why does the number one swear word refer to the female private parts?
That's just because Americans are so hypocritically obsessed about sex. The equivalent in Norwegian is also rude of course, but not much more than the equivalent word for the penis, and neither is considered as bad as the c-word IMO.

I know men in the Netherlands who have adopted their wife's name.
I imagine that it will become more common with time. With inheritance, stable family units and divorce abilities what they are today, there's really no reason to bother much with unifying the names any more. Now it's simply for fun, or so...*

Let's be serious for a moment, you have redpillers, MRA's, etc such as "Roosh" literally advocating for the legalisation of rape on private property because it would incentivise women to "take responsibility" for their actions, Paul Elam advocating for men on jury duty in rape cases to vote not guilty even if the evidence shows otherwise, pick-up artists advocating disgusting treatment of women etc and rather than be treated as the pariahs that they are, there are people that gravitate towards them.

Say what you want about "extreme" feminism, but it pales into comparison to those mentioned above.
Eh. Both extremes are still minorities within minorities. I suggest we avoid dragging them into the debate whenever possible.


* PS: Names are a hell of a thing in themselves!! I'll post a thread about it tomorrow, cause I'm going to bed now, and those things always gives me a headache.
 
My real last name is even worse than that. Much worse.
 
I'm not particularly for or against feminism but I honestly want to take up my wife's last name whenever I get married... as long as she has a halfway reasonable one. I hate my last name.
Well, you do realize that when you do get married, your wife's name here will be "Mrs. caketastydelish", right? (or some shortened form of that) After all, MobBoss' wife is "Mrs. MobBoss," Eran of Arcadia's wife is "Mrs. of Arcadia" and so on... :mischief:

Seriously, do you hate it because it's unpronounceable? Or is it common? Odd? Hard to spell?

In my case, my grandfather did what many immigrants did in the early 20th century: he shortened it. So now I'm stuck with a last name that makes a bunch of English people insist that we just have to be related, and they refuse to accept that what I consider my real last name is Scandinavian and they are not related to me at all. And it's perfectly easy to spell, thankyouverymuch, although I've had a lifetime of people insisting I don't know how to spell my own middle name (a common one in Sweden, but not in Canada except among female Swedish immigrants).
 
My real last name is Jewish, but middle eastern flavored so nobody from around here has heard of it. It's hard to pronounce and annoying as hell.
 
Evolutionary psychologists speculate that the women, and more importantly children taking on the name of the husband is to help soothe the man that the kids are actually his (when occasionally they are not).

This is exactly what I mean when I find evolutionary psychology dubious. You can take any social phenomenon and make up a story that sounds pretty good. Here's the opposite: women are returning to their natural state of keeping their own name because evolutionarily men will want to impregnate women outside his immediate social grasp to spread his genes around.
 
Evolutionary psychologists speculate that the women, and more importantly children taking on the name of the husband is to help soothe the man that the kids are actually his (when occasionally they are not).
That's not how surnames work/have worked in a lot of cultures but whatever, gotta universalise that 1950s suburbia I guess.
 
This is exactly what I mean when I find evolutionary psychology dubious. You can take any social phenomenon and make up a story that sounds pretty good.
When it comes to the past & trying to understand present behavior what else can we do but make up theories that makes sense & are universal?

Its no more dubious than most of the rest of psychology. Look at the DSM, its just a bunch of crap people vote on. At least there's no big money influencing evolutionary psychology.

Answers to complex questions about human behavior are necessarily going to be incomplete (especially in modern times when understanding of psychology is still extremely primitive). That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

That's not how surnames work/have worked in a lot of cultures but whatever, gotta universalise that 1950s suburbia I guess.
Seems fairly universal at present. Probably you can dig up some counterexamples from some place & time.

Not sure what 1950's suburbia has to do with anything.
 
Not every culture has had patrilineally passed family names or direct patronyms.

There is matrilineal naming in a number of places, often associated with inheritance and clan affiliation practices. Some cultures in India (I think in Kerala or Megalya?)), Nepal, the 6 million-strong ethnic group (apparently called the Minangkabau) in Sumatra In Spanish naming you take a surname name from each parent and are often known by the more unique one (Picasso was his mother's surname). There's also some compounding of names in the Basque country. Finns used to do patronyms for boys and matronyms for girls. I understand there's some Hebrew/Jewish matronyms as surnames. Some Native American groups did clan affiliations (and thus presumably naming) through the mother's line.

You'd expect, if naming were an "evolutionary" thing, there to be a lot more uniformity about how cultures name people and what they view as important in tracking kinship and lineages. Even the variety in patrilineal practices (from widespread clan names such as in Vietnam, to purely patronymic surnames like in Scandinavian culture, to more complicated things involving multiple lines such as this) suggests these are mere cultural practices, nothing hardwired.
 
Even just the fact that there are a lot of people out there with names like "Smith" and "Miller" should be fair indication that surnames haven't always worked like that.
 
Not every culture has had patrilineally passed family names or direct patronyms.

There is matrilineal naming in a number of places, often associated with inheritance and clan affiliation practices. Some cultures in India (I think in Kerala or Megalya?)), Nepal, the 6 million-strong ethnic group (apparently called the Minangkabau) in Sumatra In Spanish naming you take a surname name from each parent and are often known by the more unique one (Picasso was his mother's surname). There's also some compounding of names in the Basque country. Finns used to do patronyms for boys and matronyms for girls. I understand there's some Hebrew/Jewish matronyms as surnames. Some Native American groups did clan affiliations (and thus presumably naming) through the mother's line.

You'd expect, if naming were an "evolutionary" thing, there to be a lot more uniformity about how cultures name people and what they view as important in tracking kinship and lineages. Even the variety in patrilineal practices (from widespread clan names such as in Vietnam, to purely patronymic surnames like in Scandinavian culture, to more complicated things involving multiple lines such as this) suggests these are mere cultural practices, nothing hardwired.

Hell even European Nobility would do a bit of matrilineal name inheritance if the inherited land was important enough.
 
Still do, at the top level- Charles, William and Harry are considered princes of the House of Windsor rather than the House of Glücksburg.
 
Full version is Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. Try saying that ten times fast.
 
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