Feminism

[Farm Boy]

I got discombobulated by the word being censored.

Darn tho, I guess by your indisputable logic, activism also cannot be done with the majestic blue tit. This era is hard on birds.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So women have the right to murder and treat their unborn children as property. The is great news to hear.

Abortion in the US is specifically not murder and a fetus is not a child no matter how much you wish it to be so. You would be correct if you said that "women have the right pay doctors to kill their unborn babies". That is what is legal and what actually happens.

 

[Rashiminos]

I continue to be baffled why people only focus on the extremists when feminism is discussed. It's like bringing up Stalin and the atrocities he committed whenever someone mentions communism.

Big-tented defensiveness.

According to some sources, women currently make up only 4.6% of Fortune 1000 CEOs. And apparently earn an average of 77 cents to the dollar that men earn. Seems at first glance sort of like women are unfairly treated by our society. Is that not the case? Maybe I'm wrong but the stats above seem to be pretty convincing.

Hard to climb the corporate ladder while maintaining belief in a broad definition of equality or avoiding the undermining of peers when the opportunity arises.

So women have the right to murder and treat their unborn children as property. The is great news to hear.

Abortion in the US is specifically not murder and a fetus is not a child no matter how much you wish it to be so. You would be correct if you said that "women have the right pay doctors to kill their unborn babies". That is what is legal and what actually happens.

I would think the philosophical debate of what constitutes a human being or the child variant of such to be beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Farm Boy]

Abortion in the US is specifically not murder and a fetus is not a child no matter how much you wish it to be so. You would be correct if you said that "women have the right pay doctors to kill their unborn babies". That is what is legal and what actually happens.

I don't think he's trying to make a legal argument. And if you ditch that, since assuming that anyone here is that grossly out of touch with what is and isn't legal isn't reasonable, he can say those things. And he can mean them. And I can largely agree with him.

 

[Zack]

I don't think he's trying to make a legal argument. And if you ditch that, since assuming that anyone here is that grossly out of touch with what is and isn't legal isn't reasonable, he can say those things. And he can mean them. And I can largely agree with him.

"Murder" is a legal term. At least in the sense that it is, by definition, unlawful. Birdjaguar's point is valid, regardless of your personal views of the issue.

 

[Rashiminos]

"Murder" is a legal term. At least in the sense that it is, by definition, unlawful. Birdjaguar's point is valid, regardless of your personal views of the issue.

Birdjaguar wasn't strictly making a legal argument, nor would classical_hero deny the current laws of related jurisdictions.

Making it a legal argument would be like saying (~100 years ago) that women are not voters, however much they wished to be so.

 

[Farm Boy]

It is accurate. And pedantic, since it quite obviously intentionally fails to address the easily understandable meaning of CH's post. Regardless of my personal opinions on the matter.

 

[BvBPL]

I got discombobulated by the word being censored.

Darn tho, I guess by your indisputable logic, activism also cannot be done with the majestic blue tit. This era is hard on birds.

No worries. You're still rooster of the walk, not a booby or anything.

 

[classical_hero]

Abortion in the US is specifically not murder and a fetus is not a child no matter how much you wish it to be so. You would be correct if you said that "women have the right pay doctors to kill their unborn babies". That is what is legal and what actually happens.

Slavery once was legal and slaves weren't considered as a person. Jews once weren't considered persons under the German law during the Nazi era. Lets celebrate those also.

 

[Crezth]

What healthcare to women have inadequate access to? Are you talking third world or "the west" here?

The whole world. Specifically the USA since I know that place best.

 

[Senethro]

The personhood argument is kind of irrelevant. There are lots of people requiring artificial life support measures whose conditions could be alleviated by requisitioning some or parts of the nice functional organs lying within the bodies of healthy people. We do not do this because it is easily understood as a gross infringement on your personal autonomy.

Therefore it is commonly understood and accepted that you cannot compel someone or use their body as a resource to maintain the life of another.

 

[Gori the Grey]

See, but I think a different vantage point on the life-support analogy can work against the pro-choice line. If someone was on life-support, but you knew to a certainty that within nine months they would come off of it, you wouldn't pull the plug. People abort fetuses precisely because they are people-in-the-offing, so I think personhood is relevant to this issue.

(Please don't assume anything about my views on abortion from the above post; separately from those, I am interested in the pro-choice/pro-life debate as a debate and the lines of reasoning used on each side.)

 

[Flying Pig]

I think the purpose of the life-support analogy is to demonstrate that personhood is not a sufficient reason not to abort a foetus: after all, you wouldn't be morally obliged to be hooked up to an unconscious violinist for nine months in order to save his life.

 

[Farm Boy]

you wouldn't be morally obliged to be hooked up to an unconscious violinist for nine months in order to save his life.

I'm not convinced that's true.

 

[Crezth]

I'm not convinced that's true.

How do you reason?

 

[Gori the Grey]

you wouldn't be morally obliged to be hooked up to an unconscious violinist for nine months in order to save his life.

I'm not convinced that's true.

And particularly if you had generated the unconscious violinist by partaking in an act that had the widely-known potential for generating unconscious violinists.

(Again, please don't take this as an argument in the pro-choice/pro-life debate, but just an examination of the validity of the lines of reasoning within the debate.)

 

[Flying Pig]

That's an extra condition, which isn't always true - if you claim that abortion is always wrong, then you need to say that it's wrong even for people pregnant through no fault of their own. I think the point of the example is to demonstrate a limited point rather than to be comprehensive, and that limited point - that it is not necessarily a moral imperative to suffer in order to save a life - is entirely valid.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Because we have inalienable moral obligations to our fellow human beings, and that includes medical care.

I don't see how you can lament women's lack of access to medical care, and then question why someone would think we are obligated to provide women with medical care.

 

[useless]

Slavery once was legal and slaves weren't considered as a person. Jews once weren't considered persons under the German law during the Nazi era. Lets celebrate those also.

Because comparing what is essentially a clump of cells to actual human beings isn't offensive or demeaning whatsoever.

Why don't you go the full route and call everyone who promotes a woman's right to choose what she does with her body a nazi? We all know you want, so why don't you have some faith in your convictions and make that final step C_H.

 

[ParkCungHee]

That's an extra condition, which isn't always true

If you want to talk extra conditions, the scenario given has already introduced one: The fact that the person in question is not already in a life supporting relationship, and must be compelled into one.

A better analogy would be, does a conjoined twin have the moral authority to kill their sibling, especially with the knowledge that a separation will be possible in 9 months.