Feminism

[Terxpahseyton]

One notable field where women and men are equal is intelligence

On average.
Male Iq range is more diverse then female iq range though.
Saying, the most intelligent people tend to be male. The least intelligent people tend to be male.

and mental things

Well that is just wrong.
It is pretty well established by now that the male and female brain tend to have different weaknesses and strength. That of course gets heavily mudded by individual factors, but it is still there.

Ok, I was over-generalizing there. The point I was leading up to ask who gets to decide when enough feminism has been done that we don't have to actively do more because its unnecessary/inconvenient, or that progress just happens without effort. I don't really know enough about the specific issue of women in workplaces except to say that the legislatures/boardrooms of the developed world look hella fulla dudes so I'm always leery of the "do nothing" position.

It is a fair point of view. As said I myself am torn. I used to be a staunch opposer of quotas, and in some ways I still am, but after further reflection I came to the conclusion that there is an argument to be made for quotas in top management position of big companies (may become a reality in Germany) which I can not fully dismiss.
So who decides? No one really can I guess, but one has to try anyway. We both did, an so will the political elite.

King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail".

Thanks

edit: on the pay gap: Yes, when I said "accounting for all statistically relevant factors" I also meant leave-time due to the baby, shorter working hours etcetera. Women have no pay gap. Mothers have a pay gap. People who work less long have pay gap. People who take leave for the baby have a pay gap. Those are headlines which actually mean something. A women's pay gap is rabble-rousing garbage.

 

[caketastydelish]

One thing that is overlooked is that men simply choose more profitable fields and/or work longer hours. For example, yes, male doctors make more on an average than female doctors. However, male doctors are also more likely to specialize in more profitable fields of medicine and in addition, they work more hours on average.

No it doesn't mean I think women are lazy. Women generally choose a balanced life of taking care of kids and family and men don't. The fact that divorce courts almost always give the woman the house/car/kids reinforce this even further.

 

[illram]

The article you posted is not really questioning the fact that the gender pay gap is mostly not due to actual on-the-job discrimination, it's just saying that it's "unfair" regardless of the causes, which is much harder to sell.



Our economy punishes people for their biological realities all the time. As do all economies on Planet Earth, past, present and future. That's not the exclusive privilege of women who bear children.

The Laws of Physics also punish people for their biological reality.

Well it points out that even excluding those things, there is still a disparity. So it is not true that there is no pay gap when you take that into account, no matter how many times folks like to repeat that. It also points out that explaining away the entire disparity as the result of women taking a hit on their career for child birth is only addressing part of the issue. For instance I think mandatory paid maternity leave is a baseline level employment benefit that the United States amazingly does not have, and which leads to pay disparities here that you do not see in countries where women enjoy that a benefit.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Well it points out that even excluding those things, there is still a disparity.

It does?
It didn't contradict this, did it?

single women who have never married earned 96% of men’s earnings in 2012

 

[illram]

It does?
It didn't contradict this, did it?

Ponnuru cites research by conservative economist Diana Furchtgott-Roth and a consulting company showing that the gap all but disappears when factors such as women’s working fewer hours, going part-time or taking breaks from their careers are taken into account. But the Government Accountability Office has already examined this question. The GAO tried to figure out just how much of the gap could be explained by these sorts of factors. To do so, it first performed a quantitative analysis using data from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics, a nationally representative longitudinal data set. It also supplemented that work by interviewing experts, reviewing the literature and contacting employers.

What did the study find? It’s true that a variety of factors come into play—among them work patterns, job tenure, industry, occupation, race and marital status. But when it stripped all of these out, it still found that women earned about 80 percent of what men did. “Even after accounting for key factors that affect earnings,” the authors report, “our model could not explain all of the difference in earnings between men and women.” While it couldn’t definitively say what caused that 20 percent gap, plain old discrimination was one of the few possibilities it highlighted.

Even if you disregard this and go with your 96% figure, that's still 4% less isn't it?

 

[Tee Kay]

Aight. You know you job(amazingly enough) better than I do. I'll take your word on it, but in carrying tasks, lifting, shoving, or whatever, it has never been the case that everybody, regardless of gender, is equals. Making sure that people are comfortable enough in their job to self-select and self-manage tasks seems an assertiveness and effective management issue to me more than it does a gender issue to me, but like I said, I'm not there watching it. Maybe you urbans have a machismo thing that's different than the one I'm used to.

Once we were doing volunteer work and I offered a girl to carry a table down to storage. She was insulted; not just normal insulted but insulted with italics.

In my conservative Thai family though, I get savaged if I let women do physical work.

I don't think I ever quite recovered from the table incident to this day. And the real reason I wanted to carry it down to storage was to be with a boy I fancied anyway.

 

[Zelig]

Well it points out that even excluding those things, there is still a disparity. So it is not true that there is no pay gap when you take that into account, no matter how many times folks like to repeat that. It also points out that explaining away the entire disparity as the result of women taking a hit on their career for child birth is only addressing part of the issue. For instance I think mandatory paid maternity leave is a baseline level employment benefit that the United States amazingly does not have, and which leads to pay disparities here that you do not see in countries where women enjoy that a benefit.

Really you should have both mandatory maternity and paternity leaves to smooth out the disparity.

And that still wouldn't smooth out all the men who choose not to take paternity (leaves). (Even if it's paid, someone on leave is still giving up advancement potential.)

 

[illram]

I agree that men should get paid paternity leave too. But for men it is (at least on paper) a choice whether to do it or not if we have kids. A woman needs some time off no matter what if she chooses to have kids.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@illram
Where did this come from? It don't see it on the website you linked to.

Anyway, okay, that actually got some meat to chew on. I remain skeptical for the moment, but I at least feel premature for my "garbage" label earlier.

Even if you disregard this and go with your 96% figure, that's still 4% less isn't it?

What does 4% tell us? Perhaps that women just have a slight tendency to be less assertive about their wage, or are a bit more orientated about other factors than wage than men. 4% Is way too less to work with or draw any conclusions, no? I mean we are still talking about two beings with fundamentally different biologies. No gap at all would just surprise me, but not mean to me that finally sexism is defeated.
20% however is a notable divergence. But think about how funny it is that accounting for various factors gives you a gap of 20%, but just looking at women with no notable family life gives you 4%. That to me hints towards a matter of character rather than discrimination.
But well, the best way to challenge a study is a study...

 

[metatron]

that's still 4% less isn't it?

Add "childless" and "under 30" and you are significantly above 100.

I agree that men should get paid paternity leave too. But for men it is (at least on paper) a choice whether to do it or not if we have kids. A woman needs some time off no matter what if she chooses to have kids.

Why does it have to be a choice on paper for men?
Make it mandatory. Force them to take it. If you believe in this idea that people are entitled to have children and that it's essential to society for them to do so you have all the moral and ethical cover to do that.

 

[illram]

If you believe in this idea that people are entitled to have children and that it's essential to society for them to do

When you put it like that it sounds like you think that's a silly idea. Is that a silly idea? I don't think it is.

 

[Zelig]

Well it's essential for the time being, but that's only a temporary problem until we cure aging and are able to lab-grow arbitrary cells into adult humans.

 

[Traitorfish]

So why do we need it?
The equality of sexes is a value held across the Western world. It is enshrined in law. Women now have the choice to do whatever they wish. What else can we possibly do?

Equal pay, equal career and educational opportunities, end domestic violence, end sexual violence, equal representation in popular culture, comprehensive access to family planning, Nigel Farage being torn apart by wild horses; there's a bunch of things.

 

[Quackers]

Equal pay, equal career and educational opportunities, end domestic violence, end sexual violence, equal representation in popular culture, comprehensive access to family planning, Nigel Farage being torn apart by wild horses; there's a bunch of things.

Equal pay is here already. The gap is a myth.
Equal career and educational opportunities. In the UK/USA woman do better at school and better at undergraduate level than men. Women are more numerous at university. They are also encouraged to go into fields where men typically dominate.

As for domestic violence and sexual violence. We have laws in place to deal with that and society is revolted by it. It is a utopian idea to think we can ever fully end it. We are doing as much as we can to limit it as much as possible.

Equal representation in popular culture. That covers so much ground. So we should only have 50:50 art galleries and so on? A play should have exactly a 50:50 split M/F?

Comprehensive access to family planning. Yup we have that already. Even very young teenage girls in this country can get the morning afterpill from a doctor without the knowledge of their parents. Other contraceptives are offered freely if you've ever been in a "clinic". Short of getting it freely delivered to your door, or a helpful government official is nearby to hand you a condom seconds before the act; ahem, we are doing well.

Glad that is sorted. No need for feminism anymore.

 

[Senethro]

Equal pay is here already. The gap is a myth.
Equal career and educational opportunities. In the UK/USA woman do better at school and better at undergraduate level than men. Women are more numerous at university. They are also encouraged to go into fields where men typically dominate.

As for domestic violence and sexual violence. We have laws in place to deal with that and society is revolted by it. It is a utopian idea to think we can ever fully end it. We are doing as much as we can to limit it as much as possible.

Equal representation in popular culture. That covers so much ground. So we should only have 50:50 art galleries and so on? A play should have exactly a 50:50 split M/F?

Comprehensive access to family planning. Yup we have that already. Even very young teenage girls in this country can get the morning afterpill from a doctor without the knowledge of their parents. Other contraceptives are offered freely if you've ever been in a "clinic". Short of getting it freely delivered to your door, or a helpful government official is nearby to hand you a condom seconds before the act; ahem, we are doing well.

Glad that is sorted. No need for feminism anymore.

This was obviously the only conclusion you were going to get from asking a bunch of dudes about feminism.

 

[Quackers]

This was obviously the only conclusion you were going to get from asking a bunch of dudes about feminism.

Aren't you a male too?
Your opinion is equally worthless than. What does that make non-feminist women than? I'm guessing they're brainwashed or that they have "internalised misorgny" am i rite?

 

[civ_king]

For whatever this is worth, when I was an engish major the vast majority of my classmates were female. When I was getting a technical degree with Cisco/networking, the vast majority were male.

Not saying that's all there is to it, but if females are overwhelmingly choosing (on their own) less profitable fields, I fail to see how that correlates to "oppression".

Women used to overwhelmingly dominate computer programming until the male hiring managers decided that it was every other white collar job i.e. white males only with the minor addition that they should be not very social.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

As for domestic violence and sexual violence. We have laws in place to deal with that and society is revolted by it. It is a utopian idea to think we can ever fully end it. We are doing as much as we can to limit it as much as possible.

Missing out the most important point here which is that men are almost equally at risk of domestic and sexual violence anyway. Not to mention far far far FAR more likely to be a victim of violence overall.

 

[metatron]

[...]

 

[Farm Boy]

Missing out the most important point here which is that men are almost equally at risk of domestic and sexual violence anyway.

That's actually in implicit premise in our criminal justice system.