[RD] Feminism

[caketastydelish]

I am lucky enough that I don't personally know anyone murdered. Definitely not anyone close to me. But I'm sure there's an abundance of people you could talk to.

I know 4 women who have been raped.

One of them was unbelievably forgiving and had unbelievably moved on like the rape never even happened. I'd consider that to be exceptional. That woman has far more strength than I do. And she carried her rapists baby (and cares for the baby) at that.

The second one was hurt by the incident but it far from permanently ruined her. She's married to a man (not her rapist of course) and is a stay at home mommy with their baby.
,

The third one is the girl you already know about, the anthropologist. There are a few things she isn't willing to do sexually (as her ex abused her sexually in certain ways that trigger certain things) she can have a healthy relationship with any man and otherwise live what would, for the most part, be considered a 'normal life'.

The fourth girl was the other person you already knew. The completely crazy girl who I had my first sexually intimate experience with. She wasn't crazy because of what happened to her, she was crazy because she was CRAZY. But she was happy.

All four of these women are better off alive than dead. There's your answer.

edit: And that's not even including how their families and friends would feel about it. When you factor that in, there's simply no contest.

 

[caketastydelish]

But actually, I can back some of what I'm saying up with concrete evidence.

http://www.suicide.org/rape-victims-prone-to-suicide.html

Only 33% of rape victims will even think about suicide, and only 13% will actually attempt it.

Therefore, a minimum of 77% of rape victims are better off alive than dead. There you go.

 

[caketastydelish]

Even more evidence: Over half of university students have contemplated suicide. That's including ALL the students, not just the rape victims. So "33% of rape victims have contemplated suicide at some point in their lives" may not even indicate what you think it does.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In that case, try following your own advice. Also, you should really stop using 'mansplain' every time someone who just happens to be male holds a different opinion than you. Do you realize how pretentious I'd sound if I said 'femsplain' every type a female said something I didn't like?

I use that term when it's a clear case of a man explaining women to women and getting it wrong, particularly if said in a condescending or other derogatory manner. If you want me to stop using the term, then stop doing the action that prompts the use of the term.

It's not a matter of different opinions. I've had different opinions from just about every man on this forum at some point. Sometimes it's been on political issues, sometimes on personal issues, sometimes on relationship issues (like the many "how do I find a girlfriend" threads - interesting point in that I have never, even once, seen any "how do I find a boyfriend" threads here), and even issues of tipping/no tipping, is it pop, coke, or soda, or what the best pizza toppings are.

Me and you are just two individuals. I don't care about your gender, orientation, social class, age, religion, etc. I don't even want to know. And I would hope you feel the same way of me.

Ideally, these things wouldn't be as important as simply having an interesting discussion on a forum - and in most cases the interesting discussions do happen, irrespective of the gender of the participants. But there are times when it really does get brought home that I'm in a minority population on this forum. Some threads that I might otherwise be interested in just devolve into "locker room talk" and that's not something I'm comfortable with. And I'm still trying to figure out why a male forum member told me to "mind your own business" when I posted my opinions in the "burkini" thread several years ago. I was the only woman participating in that conversation, it was about female Muslim swimwear... and I was told to "mind your own business." I'd love to hear the rationale for that, since it was never offered at the time.

We're just two people who happen to disagree. And that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion just as much as I'm entitled to mine. The United States and Canada are both free countries, anyway.

But when you say 'mansplain' the implication is I'm only wrong because I'm a man. I'm even willing to admit I could be wrong (though I don't see evidence), but telling me I'm wrong versus telling me I'm wrong just because I'm a man are two different things.

I have never said that to anyone on this forum - that they're wrong simply because they're men. Not once. I have said that they might not understand some issue or point because it pertains to an experience they've never had - and never can have, since they're not female - but not understanding doesn't automatically mean wrong. I know I've been exasperated in the "girlfriend" threads because it seems to me that SOME of the guys participating view this not as meeting and getting to know the other person before progressing to "date + bed", but rather as a shopping expedition of the same sort they would apply to buying a new computer system or car. I rather suspect it's the ones who said, "What do you know about this, Valka - you're a woman" who are the ones that are having the problems.

In University terms, this is a 'soft science' or humanities, rather than hard science or STEM. Let me explain the difference. In STEM you have concrete things that can be proven or disproven. It is absolute. In humanities or 'soft' subjects, it is not like that.

Congratulations on one of the fastest achievements of self-contradiction that I've ever seen here. There's a reason why I invite people to check my posting history. If you had, you would know that I've been into science - astronomy in particular - since a very young age. I don't need "STEM" explained to me, thank you. I especially don't need it in a condescending tone.

The morality of whether rape or death is worse is not something that can be proven or disproven. So then, 'you're only wrong because you're a man' is just plain pathetic.

Show me where I said that.

Plotinus, IIRC has a PhD from Oxford University in Philosophy. I'd like his opinion on whether rape or death should be considered worse. Not because he's a man, but because he has a PhD in Philosophy from what is arguably the most respected institution in the world.

I suspect Plotinus would say it's up to the individual rape survivor, as to whether she - or he - would rather be dead than have to live with the physical and/or psychological consequences of what happened.

But by all means, let's ask @Plotinus to participate in this conversation.

 

[caketastydelish]

Show me where I said that.

In the context of this thread, no. You decided to get into a mansplaining session with Lemon Merchant, who has counseled rape victims, some of whom expressed the feeling that they would rather have been killed than have to live with the aftermath of what happened to them.

I don't intend to revive that argument, but if you want to debate the circumstances in which death is worse than (fill in the blank), a new thread might prove more useful since there are other things that some people consider worse than death.

There.

I use that term when it's a clear case of a man explaining women to women and getting it wrong, particularly if said in a condescending or other derogatory manner. If you want me to stop using the term, then stop doing the action that prompts the use of the term.

Sounds like you don't know me. I am MUCH more hostile towards my fellow men than I am to women. I've given death threats before, including people on this very forum. Guess what? They were men. I have done and contemplate doing truly despicable things to my fellow men that I wouldn't for a fraction of a second think about doing to a woman. If you think I have a double standard against women, you clearly don't know me.

It's not a matter of different opinions. I've had different opinions from just about every man on this forum at some point. Sometimes it's been on political issues, sometimes on personal issues, sometimes on relationship issues (like the many "how do I find a girlfriend" threads - interesting point in that I have never, even once, seen any "how do I find a boyfriend" threads here), and even issues of tipping/no tipping, is it pop, coke, or soda, or what the best pizza toppings are.

Then what is it?

Ideally, these things wouldn't be as important as simply having an interesting discussion on a forum - and in most cases the interesting discussions do happen, irrespective of the gender of the participants. But there are times when it really does get brought home that I'm in a minority population on this forum. Some threads that I might otherwise be interested in just devolve into "locker room talk" and that's not something I'm comfortable with. And I'm still trying to figure out why a male forum member told me to "mind your own business" when I posted my opinions in the "burkini" thread several years ago. I was the only woman participating in that conversation, it was about female Muslim swimwear... and I was told to "mind your own business." I'd love to hear the rationale for that, since it was never offered at the time.

Sure, but whoever said that wasn't me. Don't lump me in with him.

I have never said that to anyone on this forum - that they're wrong simply because they're men. Not once. I have said that they might not understand some issue or point because it pertains to an experience they've never had - and never can have, since they're not female - but not understanding doesn't automatically mean wrong. I know I've been exasperated in the "girlfriend" threads because it seems to me that SOME of the guys participating view this not as meeting and getting to know the other person before progressing to "date + bed", but rather as a shopping expedition of the same sort they would apply to buying a new computer system or car. I rather suspect it's the ones who said, "What do you know about this, Valka - you're a woman" who are the ones that are having the problems.

Meh. In this case the best you can say is 'you don't know just because you haven't been raped' rather than ' you don't know just because you're a man'. Because 1) it's possible for a man to get raped (especially in jail) and 2) the majority of women will not get raped, thank God. Even then, one individual story of one individual rape survivor doesn't trump every other story in the world.

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

Congratulations on one of the fastest achievements of self-contradiction that I've ever seen here. There's a reason why I invite people to check my posting history. If you had, you would know that I've been into science - astronomy in particular - since a very young age. I don't need "STEM" explained to me, thank you. I especially don't need it in a condescending tone.

As stated before, I don't actually know what your background is.

I suspect Plotinus would say it's up to the individual rape survivor, as to whether she - or he - would rather be dead than have to live with the physical and/or psychological consequences of what happened.

In that case Plotinus would agree with me. But let's let him speak for himself. We don't need a catsplainer, do we?

But by all means, let's ask @Plotinus to participate in this conversation.

Agreed.

 

[aelf]

Women were exempt from the draft because they were seen as the weaker sex. Hardly an evidence of sexism against men.

 

[caketastydelish]

Sure, whatever. I'd rather be 'seen as the weaker sex' than die on a battlefield. No contest.

When the allied soldiers landed on Normandy the average age was 22. These were kids. Tons of them not only got killed but got killed in an absolutely disgusting way. I would rather 'be seen as the weaker sex' what about you?

 

[aelf]

What you think is not relevant, kid. Sexism as a social phenomenon is not determined by your sophomoric personal opinion.

Moderator Action: Ad hominem put-downs are not welcome here. Disagree respectfully or not at all. FP

 

[caketastydelish]

I would generally agree that women have it worse. You're just giving bad examples.

 

[aelf]

Sexism is not simply a matter of who is 'worse off'. Only the extremely ignorant would argue that the draft is a historical example of sexism against men instead of sexism against women, even if being drafted is indeed worse (at least in the contemporary view) than not being drafted.

 

[caketastydelish]

Ok, fine.

Women weren't drafted because

1) they're biologically capable of having babies. Men aren't. At any cattle ranch, you can have 100 cows and only a few bulls.

2) It is true that women are physically weaker than men on average. Of course, women are now having to sign up. I think there are three reasons for this:

a) as technology becomes more advanced, 'physical strength' in combat is mattering less and less.

b) our exercise training programs are more advanced, allowing women to become physically stronger much quicker and more efficiently than before.

c) Get the MRAs to shut up.

Honestly, if only women were drafted I bet you'd still say sexism against women. But whatever. Once again, this is a social science, not a hard science. Not something that can be proven or disproven. 'Sexism' and 'the patriarchy' are vague concepts, to begin with. Like I said, I already agree with you that sexism against women is more common than sexism against men. "Women don't have to get slaughtered like animals in the battlefield" is a weak example, though.

 

[Senethro]

Looking at civil wars and total wars I don't get the impression that the burden of horror/suffering falls solely upon official uniformed fighters who fall in battle and are male. It's kind of shared around so you're going to die or get displaced anyway.

 

[Ryika]

Like I said, I already agree with you that sexism against women is more common than sexism against men. "Women don't have to get slaughtered like animals in the battlefield" is a weak example, though.

That's exactly the problem with feminist theory though.

If women are disadvantaged, that's because of sexism - because men made it so they're disadvantaged.
If women are advantaged, that's because of sexism, too - because men think women are not capable of carrying that burden.

It doesn't matter what it is, if there's a difference between the genders, then women are automatically assumed to be the ones discriminated against in that situation. The narrative is "Men see women as lesser beings", so of course everything is looked at through that lens, and evaluated by that standard.

 

[caketastydelish]

Looking at civil wars and total wars I don't get the impression that the burden of horror/suffering falls solely upon official uniformed fighters who fall in battle and are male. It's kind of shared around so you're going to die or get displaced anyway.

Nah. A solid majority of the deaths are male, even among civilians. edit: This is not even including that on the winning side, the civilian casualties will be close to 0.

 

[Honor]

Women were exempt from the draft because they were seen as the weaker sex.

Hey aelf. This is just your own conjecture from a very narrow emotional perspective, FYI.

 

[W|M]

Nah. A solid majority of the deaths are male, even among civilians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_macho-violence_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-02-07/myanmar-s-army-tormenting-muslims-brutal-rape-campaign

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-mosul-prisoners-idUSKBN15W1N0

 

[Honor]

Ok, fine.

Women weren't drafted because

1) they're biologically capable of having babies. Men aren't. At any cattle ranch, you can have 100 cows and only a few bulls.

2) It is true that women are physically weaker than men on average. Of course, women are now having to sign up. I think there are three reasons for this:

a) as technology becomes more advanced, 'physical strength' in combat is mattering less and less.

b) our exercise training programs are more advanced, allowing women to become physically stronger much quicker and more efficiently than before.

c) Get the MRAs to shut up.

Honestly, if only women were drafted I bet you'd still say sexism against women. But whatever. Once again, this is a social science, not a hard science. Not something that can be proven or disproven. 'Sexism' and 'the patriarchy' are vague concepts, to begin with. Like I said, I already agree with you that sexism against women is more common than sexism against men. "Women don't have to get slaughtered like animals in the battlefield" is a weak example, though.

And 3) Men love (or used to love, it seems) women, just like women love (or used to love) men. Men sacrificed themselves in battle so that their partners and children would live.

 

[caketastydelish]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_macho-violence_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-02-07/myanmar-s-army-tormenting-muslims-brutal-rape-campaign

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-mosul-prisoners-idUSKBN15W1N0

I checked every one of your links. None of them contradict what I said.

I said a solid majority of deaths are male. I never said a solid majority of rape victims are male. "Women are more likely to get raped, men are more likely to get killed" is exactly what I've been saying over and over.

 

[Senethro]

Struggling to restate my point without sounding like a huge jerk to somebody, but I think actual battlefield deaths in Syria are dwarfed by the rest of the crap that goes on, which falls evenly on both sexes.

See also ww2 eastern front

 

[caketastydelish]

Struggling to restate my point without sounding like a huge jerk to somebody, but I think actual battlefield deaths in Syria are dwarfed by the rest of the crap that goes on, which falls evenly on both sexes.

Prove it.

See also ww2 eastern front

Give me statistics or documented evidence for exactly what you mean.

Anyway, if you cherry pick you can *maybe* find a few examples where just as much, or more of the casualties were female. Just as you'll find some bizarre scenarios where there was a significant portion of men getting raped.

I'm talking about in general.