FfH2 0.20 Balance Feedback

[Kael]

Ah! I misinterpreted. Hum... it fixes micromanagement and makes things easier for the AI, but I do sort of like the system as it is now. Maybe we should let the AI cheat in the way it does with adepts and mana nodes. So long as they have one forge (weaponsmith) and access to copper and/or iron (mithril), they automatically upgrade in cities; however, keep it the way it is for humans.

If the AI has access to copper or iron in a city it will always build a forge there. The thing it doesn't do is pull units back to the city for upgrades.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

If the AI has access to copper or iron in a city it will always build a forge there. The thing it doesn't do is pull units back to the city for upgrades.

Well, I suppose that's not too bad, since I often don't either.

 

[marioflag]

About the forge and weapon system i think there are some unbalancements:
-first forge you build in a city is really important because you can upgrade all your units in this city
-other forges are not so important except for the bonus of 10% to hammers, because you can upgrade your units in a single city with a forge
-If AI don't move units in a city with forge human player get a huge advantage

Wouldn't be more balanced and give humans less advantage if we have a different system?

-Upgrading units can be done only through a National Wonder (which AI prioritize) which allow upgrades for all your units built in every city, Forge give +20% hammer bonus but no weapon upgrades

in alternative

-City forges can upgrade only units built in the city it is located, this system suppose that units gets some sort of mark of the city where it is built.


In this way we don't get the huge advantage of getting units with weapon upgrade while AI has a lot less units weapon upgraded

 

[Jean Elcard]

I didn't read the whole thread, sorry, but unless I missed something essential, than the mounted and melee tech tree are highly imbalanced!
Realised this while playing a multiplayer game with a friend, when he was running around with his Hippus War Chariots of strength 15 at a time, when my best unit had a strength of 7.

I compared the War Chariot (14/11/3) to the Spartiatoi (11/11/1) by counting together the you need to get them. Both are national units which cost 240 each, need a special building for 300 and have a comparable strength, I would say. The result at normal speed:

War Chariot: 11.168
Spartiatoi: 28.588

That's a difference of 17420! I think a bit of balncing is highly recommendable here, don't you think so?

14. Increased the cost of Smelting from 800 to 1200.

Argh! No, thats the wrong thing to do. I still think there should be something done about the 2.5 times more research points (increasing...) you need for melee than for mounted units.

War Chariots don't get defensive bonuses and can't get many cool promotions that Spartiatoi can get. Although I do agree with you. Maybe the tech for war chariots should need another prereq.

Yeah right, I didn't think of this. But still, War Chariots are very fast. If you use them right, there will be no need for you to defend yourself. In one of my games my 3 early worg riders (movement 5) were quite a pain in the neck for my enemy and his warriors. He couldn't even reach them. And even if you have to defend yourself with war chariots for some reason, an 11 defense strength is a tough nut to crack for a strength 6 or 7 melee unit.

Maybe the tech for war chariots should need another prereq.

Another thech prerequisite would be really nice. Perhaps something from the engineering line. You can't build a chariot just because you know how to sit on a horseback. Another suggestion would be one of the the metal techs to make the chariots more sturdy.

The funniest part about the mounted line is that horsearchers are a downgrade IMO from the regular chariots 1 tech before it. Go figure!

Right you are. Just another problem with the mounted line.


Last but not least. I just saw that if you go for the mounted tech line you are forced to go for some other useful secondary techs like writing, education or archery, which are nice to have. But this might not have such a big impact after all.

 

[katika]

Argh! No, thats the wrong thing to do. I still think there should be something done about the 2.5 times more research points (increasing...) you need for melee than for mounted units.

I think you're missing the reduction in Metal Casting from 3200 to 1600. So the melee line has a net decrease of 1200 beakers. It's a good step. The regular chariots require construction, IIRC, so maybe you could add that requirement. Still doesn't quite equalize the costs, but I don't think that every unit line should cost the same. The melee line also gives some nice economic bonuses and mithril is needed for many units. Still, I usually go for Beserkers if I want T4 melee units because the other melee techs cost a lot.

About the Chariots and Horse Archers... Both are supposed to be T3 but I've only ever built Horse Archers once before I realized that Chariots are better.

 

[Saien]

AI controlled Khazad are simply crippled early game because they refuse to build settlers. Building up their cash just takes too long.

Suggestion: Remove the restriction on settlers until there are three cities, or simply start Khazad with 150ish cash.

 

[uberfish]

Orthus is too weak now, he often immediately suicides against a warrior fortified on a forest hill or city. I usually see his axe change hands within a couple of turns of spawning.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

AI controlled Khazad are simply crippled early game because they refuse to build settlers. Building up their cash just takes too long.

Suggestion: Remove the restriction on settlers until there are three cities, or simply start Khazad with 150ish cash.

Seems like the Khazad do just fine in the games I play. Sure, it takes them some time to get going, and sure, a human player can swamp them with settlers if he starts nearby; the hammer, GPP, and happicap bonus of the dwarven vault makes up for that. I've seen them be the score leader before, and of course they're very good at summoning Basium.

 

[marioflag]

Orthus is too weak now, he often immediately suicides against a warrior fortified on a forest hill or city. I usually see his axe change hands within a couple of turns of spawning.

It also happens to me, usually on turn 235-236 (10 turns after Orthus spawned) the Axe has already changed.I play always on Monarch or Emperor so other AIs are better defended.I think anyway that it can be due to the fact that Orthus attacks a big stack of units so he will lose really easily.

 

[z00t]

a few more observations from my sheaim game

-the four horsemen of the apocalypse all died within a couple of turns of appearing. id say it might be related to how late they arrive, but as im only on turn 280 they probably could use beefing up a bit

-the changes in resources when hell appears cripples the health of cities. logically it makes sense that cities are less healthy, but it is a very big handicap for an evil civ (shouldnt hell appearing hurt the good civs and strengthen the evil ones?). btw i like the new resources, its just a shame that i only have fish and toads to keep me healthy

-once the apocalypse counter gets really high (mines on 78 so far) the sheaims economy takes a plunge as they get flooded with units. it is a lot of fun playing on 0% research and warring half the world at once, and barely avoiding rioting from no gold, but if the setting was higher than emperor id imagine it gets extremely tough

i also have a question about planar gates which i might aswell ask here to save an extra post. if i build 10 planar gates, and 1 public baths, will succubus still spawn up to the max possible but with lower odds per turn? or does it also take 10 public baths to get the max?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

i also have a question about planar gates which i might aswell ask here to save an extra post. if i build 10 planar gates, and 1 public baths, will succubus still spawn up to the max possible but with lower odds per turn? or does it also take 10 public baths to get the max?

They will only show up in the city with the baths, so it will be slower, but there is the same maximum.

 

[katika]

Actually, I think Orthus is stronger now. In two of my last three games Orthus has wiped out an enemy AI (Emperor difficulty). In .16 he seemed to have a lot more problems with just suiciding against cities.

 

[Gamestation]

Anyone find that the crush spell is a bit too powerful? Or is it fine the way it is because of its short range and one tile only effect?

 

[Saien]

Give some consideration to modifying the AI so that it doesn't switch to religions that would change its religion.

Started a 15 man game, came out 6 good 6 evil 3 neutral (As the Amurites, I'm one neutral). I founded OO, which for some reason had some trouble spreading naturally. By the time I got to manually spread it some, there were 6 good, 1 evil, and 8 neutral. Most of the AI were runes, except Ljsol and Svalt who were leaves.

Manually handing the (formally evil) OO, they don't switch.

 

[BCalchet]

Give some consideration to modifying the AI so that it doesn't switch to religions that would change its religion.

Still, my experience agrees with your observations: Runes is usually the first religion that spreads to many civs, and it does tend to make everyone happily neutral/good before OO even has a chance to appear. I'd imagine one reason is the AI preferring techs that are useful 90% of the time (mining) to ones useful only 25% or so of the time (fishing).

If implementable, I suggest slowing down the spread of early religions, but increase the effect of religious wonders on the rate for a final result of the same value: If the current rate is 100 base + 25 from the wonder, maybe something like 50 base + 75 from the wonder might give more religions the chance of appearing before all the AIs make their choices.
This could also give players a limited ability to seal away religions without founding them in a non-roaded city - just found it and choose not to create the wonder, and it'll be unlikely to spread to AIs anytime soon.

(Note that the actual numbers up there are pulled out of nowhere, and in no way represent any truth to be found in the game - just made some up to illustrate the point.)

 

[Master_Hugian]

I see no point in building Spider Pens, all you get is silk (which might give +1 happyness but you can just get it otherways) perhaps having a Spider Pen allows one unit a turn to coat his weapon with Spider Venom (+1 Poison) which vanishes after he has attacked a unit.

 

[Mesix]

I see no point in building Spider Pens, all you get is silk (which might give +1 happyness but you can just get it otherways) perhaps having a Spider Pen allows one unit a turn to coat his weapon with Spider Venom (+1 Poison) which vanishes after he has attacked a unit.

I like the idea of +1 venom. Perhaps the bonus could be limited to recon units as a balancing factor instead of limiting the duration. A ranger can carry spider venom with him to coat his blade or arrow tips after all.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I like the idea of +1 venom. Perhaps the bonus could be limited to recon units as a balancing factor instead of limiting the duration. A ranger can carry spider venom with him to coat his blade or arrow tips after all.

Well, that spell is already in as nature sorcery. It could probably be attached to the building as well.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yeah, and since the spider pen requires Animal Handling (or something like that), it would make sure that it's not abused early on.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Fire-magic is still overpowered
I think magic is still unbalanced, and Fire magic is still overpowered. There is some really nice high level spells in other spheres as well : having 3 large cities with no unrest is VERY good, the new maelstrom spell is a nice alternative to meteor for direct damage, but some things still make fire overpowered to my eyes :

• Fire have the biggest range of all direct damage spells, thus your fire mages can wipe out stacks, cities, ... while staying out of reach of most units.
• Fire has a large collateral damage, meaning that with enough fireballs you will wipe out an entire stack, or at least weaken them largely.
• You can bombard city defenses with fireballs/meteors, making fire spells double use spells : weaken (or kill) units AND weaken cities, while most spells have only one use.
• You can attack without any sort of Line of Sight : just cast a fireball with a mage, send it explore the FoW, and have your archmage cast meteor to kill anything you have seen with the first fireball. This nearly makes fire spells triple-use spells.
• Last but not least, with only ONE mana node (or your capitol mana), you can get the level II promo for free, if you build the eternal flame that is! This means when you need to spend precious promotions, or turn several equally precious raw-mana nodes to specific manas, to get some good, but slighly less powerfull and less versatile spells, you just need ONE mana to get fire.

I think in order to make other spheres more on-part with fire, you would have to make the following changes :

• Reduce collateral damage
• Remove the ability to bombard cities
• Remove the cheesy eternal flame
• Make fireballs/meteors "blind"

I think fire would be less cheesy this way. 3 fire archmages can pretty easily wipe out anything. They would still be able to do it, but they would require some help to see ennemy units, couldn't in addition remove city defenses and would require more investment.

Oh, additionally Ring of Warding could give Fire-Resistant promotion to units inside the city, or have a chance to destruct fireballs/meteors just like summoned creatures! Hmm, maybe they can, the AI rarely build them so i can't be sure.