FfH2 0.20 Balance Feedback

[onedreamer]

I like the way you think.
Both of this (and all other techs that give two one-time boni) has been addressed in Rise of Mania (now Fire compatible).

Yeah, I thought so since I only played RoM in this year I immediatly noticed many small glitches like this
So it's fire compatible... let the download begin then !

 

[onedreamer]

one of despotism, conquest, military discipline, or military state civics should get the Military Garrison Happiness bonus

all four make sense for it and most of them aren't serious competitors for their categories as is.

Conquest is ok IMO. Faster military production and more XP. Military State is very good for the AI, and not bad for humans if you're organized and don't plan on a cultural victory. Military discipline and despotism would both benefit and make sense with garrison happiness bonus, but since despotism is there from start it would allow for fast early growth which is not what the designers want I think, so I would think something at else for it.

- The Altar of the Lunnonator (stage IV? - don't know if it applies to all...) seems to give the blessed promotion to all your units, not only those build in the city that has it.

It's supposed to be like this, it's only the tooltip that is wrong (since FFH1). I take it you never built it in Light ?

 

[Master_Hugian]

Right now having a unit worship a religion does little other than determine what it does in the after life, and even then the FoL does nothing at all (except for divine casters). Maybe have each religion give a small bonus, maybe even tie it with the religion's civic

Spoiler :

Order: +10% str vs units with Ashen Veil
(if the counter is less than 30, this is increased to +20%)
with Social Order: Give +1 happiness to the city its in.
Veil: +10% on hell terrain
(if the counter is more than 30, this increases to +20%)
with Sacrifice the Weak: +20% Fire Resistance, Double movement on hell terrain
Runes: +10% on hills
(with Arete (tech) may have Gurilllia II - I think that the religion should become a requirement for this promotion and than any unit may have it, its strange to me that a warrior who does not worship the religion may have it while a disciple may not, especially when you need the religion tech to get it)
with Arete: +1 Hammer
Fellowship: +10% in Forests
(with Guardian of Nature (tech) may have Woodsman II, same reasoning as before - why should the religionless warrior have it when the druid is not allowed it)
with Guardian of Nature: Douse Flame special ability (uses movement, removes smoke from tile)
Overlords: +10% on sea tiles and attacking across rivers
(with Mind Stapling, may gain the promotion water walking)
with Slavery: Submerge (requires water walking, become invisible on water tiles)
Cult: +10% magic resistance (Cold, Fire, Lightning, Death)
(This bonus is increased by 10% for every dragon in exsistance)- These bonuses only affect Sheaim and Kuriotate units.

Another suggestion, right now there is a 'good' aligned victory with the Alter of the Luniotar, some may say its an easy victory so many make it so that it can only be built or upgraded if the counter is below 30. As for the evil I think there is a lack of purpose to destroying the world, so perhaps give them a ritual which has several stages with upon completion of the last stage brings victory, each ritual requires a certain tech and a minimun counter.

Spoiler :

Note: these bonuses would not stack

Ritual 1: Requires Counter 20, Way of the Wicked
All units with the Ashen Veil religion gain +3 exp
30% chance they gain Free Promotion

Ritual 2: Require Counter 40, Corruption of Spirit
All units with Ashen Veil religion gain +6 exp
40% chance they gain Free Promotion
Hell terrain spreads faster

Ritual 3: Requires Counter 60, Fanatism, 40% of land must be hell terrain
All units with Ashen Veil religion gain +9 exp
60% chance they gain Free Promotion
Hell terrain spreads faster
Units with Ashen veil gain a bonus to strength equal to half the % of land which is hell terrain.

Ritual 4: Requires Counter 80, Malevolent Designs, 60% of the land must be hell terrain
-All units with Ashen Veil religion gain +12 exp
90% chance they gain Free Promotion
-Hell terrain spreads faster
Units with Ashen veil gain a bonus to strength equal to half the % of land which is hell terrain.
Destruction of the world (Everything dies )

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

It's supposed to be like this, it's only the tooltip that is wrong (since FFH1). I take it you never built it in Light ?

Well... In light the blessed promotion gave nearly nothing and vanished after the first fight. I haven't checked if the blessed promotion is lost after battel but the +1 holy strenght seems quite overpowerd if you give it to every new unit.

 

[Sureshot]

Well... In light the blessed promotion gave nearly nothing and vanished after the first fight. I haven't checked if the blessed promotion is lost after battel but the +1 holy strenght seems quite overpowerd if you give it to every new unit.

seems to wear off fairly quickly, is nice when you have it tho

about Conquest, i find its fairly useless (compared to its alternatives) because you're better off with farm/mines combo for production under agriculture, so the only benefit is the +2 xp, but i have a hard time believing thats worth the far(m ) greater production of agriculture

military state is pretty decent, tho with draft ability itd make more sense and be more useful.

military discipline would be a better spot perhaps, if only because it comes later and seems rather useless as is.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I liked Sureshot's idea of changing Ag to +1 food, +1 health.

As to Bless being stronger, it depends. I believe it used to be +20% str. To an un promoted unit, this is equivalent to +1 at 5 str, higher with less than 5, and less of a bonus at >5.

 

[Civkid1991]

Im not sure if this is a good thing or bad but i like it over all: The infernals and infernal unit killing is like a good way of uping production and research or population all at the same time. When you build a unit say at the captial and that city has a demon alter you can sacrifice that unit after you upgrade it (since you have apprenticeship) and that unit when it dies returns as demons for you empire and once again if you have M Calderon (cant remember the full name of the wonder) in that city you unit will be born again as a undead unit.

So... basicly sacrificing your units at the demon alter if you are the infernals is a plus

 

[Bluenoise]

Hmmm I'm not seeing this basium overpowered thing. In my game he just sits in his little city with angles and a settler and does absolutley nothing... While Hyborem is spreading slowley into Elohim territory.

 

[ghost2222]

The altar that requires like 8 great prophets and then to build the last building is entirely too easy to accomplish, the first game my wife and I played with that victory condition enabled, even without micro managing prophets she was able to win by about 30 turns after the Mecurians entered the world.

My suggestion if you do want this as a victory condition is to make it harder on each step. Instead of just a great prophet, force the player to accomplish greater and greater good deeds before sacrificing the prophet. I.E.

2nd Upgrade: 10 evil units must be defeated by your civ. (not sure if this can be implemented in your system)

3rd Upgrade: 3 Cities of an evil civ must be captured or razed by your civ.

etc...

Possibly final upgrade: Hyborem must be killed and the Ashen Veil Holy City must be destroyed before the final altar can be built by any civ.

-Tony

 

[Chandrasekhar]

The altar that requires like 8 great prophets and then to build the last building is entirely too easy to accomplish, the first game my wife and I played with that victory condition enabled, even without micro managing prophets she was able to win by about 30 turns after the Mecurians entered the world.

My suggestion if you do want this as a victory condition is to make it harder on each step. Instead of just a great prophet, force the player to accomplish greater and greater good deeds before sacrificing the prophet. I.E.

2nd Upgrade: 10 evil units must be defeated by your civ. (not sure if this can be implemented in your system)

3rd Upgrade: 3 Cities of an evil civ must be captured or razed by your civ.

etc...

Possibly final upgrade: Hyborem must be killed and the Ashen Veil Holy City must be destroyed before the final altar can be built by any civ.

-Tony

That actually sounds like a nice idea... though I'd still prefer it to be buildable with hammers (at great cost) as well.

 

[ghost2222]

With the new ability to set forests on fire, I've noticed that very quickly into the game entire forests are getting wiped out. I know that is intended, but there should be a balance to it other than spring and Ancient Forests being immune.

I was thinking allowing bloom to be cast in neutral territory and adding a new nature spell that is only available to civs with the Way of the Forest religion as state religion. Basically make a protect the forests spell that is similar to hope where it will fade after the unit moves away, but will protect both it's square and adjecent.

Pretty much this allows for Way of the Forest civs to place some adepts on the border of fires and cast their protection without having to first get a water node and get adepts with water.

I just think something as powerful as the new forest fire mechanic needs more than 1 counter to it, forcing every civ that wants forests to pick up water is imbalanced imo.

-Tony

 

[Kael]

With the new ability to set forests on fire, I've noticed that very quickly into the game entire forests are getting wiped out. I know that is intended, but there should be a balance to it other than spring and Ancient Forests being immune.

I was thinking allowing bloom to be cast in neutral territory and adding a new nature spell that is only available to civs with the Way of the Forest religion as state religion. Basically make a protect the forests spell that is similar to hope where it will fade after the unit moves away, but will protect both it's square and adjecent.

Pretty much this allows for Way of the Forest civs to place some adepts on the border of fires and cast their protection without having to first get a water node and get adepts with water.

I just think something as powerful as the new forest fire mechanic needs more than 1 counter to it, forcing every civ that wants forests to pick up water is imbalanced imo.

-Tony

I did turn forest regrowth in "Fire". We may want to consider increasing its likelyhood.

 

[ghost2222]

Here's a suggestion that would also play well. Squares that had a forest and have been wiped out by fire could gain an improvment such as: fertile. These squares would add 1 additional food.

Also, the fertile improvement would have 1% per turn chance or something similar of being removed after a farm have been placed on that land to balance people blooming forests then just burning them to get 1 food everywhere for the rest of the game.

-Tony

 

[Maniac]

Yeah, I thought so since I only played RoM in this year I immediatly noticed many small glitches like this
So it's fire compatible... let the download begin then !

Err abort that. I just found a python bug.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd make jungles either resistant to fire or immune to it. Seems like being on the same continent as Acheron means that you don't have to get Sanitation to build at the equator.

 

[Vilnon]

Played a few games now, a few rambling comments.

*** Game Pace ***
I don't like how the pacing has changed. Basically, once Infernal has been Summoned the end game has begun. Very quickly AV will spread, wars will start etc. Adding Basium just makes in even more 'end gamey'.

Its too easy to rush to Infernal (and somewhat Basium). If your planning on hopping to Infernal/Basium there's no reason to waste time building a 'real' civ. Get up a few cities, enough warriors that the AIs won't molest you, then head straight for your religion. Previously, the need to maintain a functioning Civ ment you couldn't rush to Order/AV very easily.

I also don't really like that summoning Infernal is 'free', and to Summon Basium you need to put hammers into it. That means that Infernal is always going to have a fair number of turns to spread his evil before Basium could even possible show up. Its not really Good vs Evil if Good is always showing up 50 turns late.

Allowing an Order Civ to build the Mercurian Gate before Infernal shows would at least let a Good Civ thats ahead on research to pop out Basium at the same time as the Infernals.

Personal preferance, I really like to see the Summoning of Infernal/Basium tied to a followup tech to the tech that grants the religion. Especially on the AV side, other civs get no warning that Infernal is about to appear because random Civ X is reasearching AV.

In light of my feeling about how the Infernals mean the game has entered its last phases, another Civ researching AV is the same as another Civ starting to build the Tower of Mastery. Differance is that the Tower of Mastery comes so much later. Same problem with the Alter victory. It can happen so much earlier compared to the other victory conditions that I feel short changed by the length of the game.

** Forest Fires **
I agree with another poster's complaint on the almost requirement to have a Water caster to be able to throw Spring on the forest fires. I'd recommend a few things.
a. Reduce the chance fire spreads inside cultural borders. After all, our workers are out there doing something to fight the spread. A possilble source of maintance costs if a balancing factor is needed.
b. Consider moving Tree Removal off Bronze Working to an earlier tech perhaps in the constrution line. Its the only way to deal with forest fires outside of Water Magic, and letting smart players build firebreaks without also being forced into the Melee Unit line would be good.
c. Speed up the Burn out time. I have yet to see a forest fire 'go out' on its own (Perhaps it can't, or didn't wait long enough). If fires had a greater chance to end, you wouldn't see as much of the 'whole world on fire' that you see now. Instead you'd see smaller fires that take out a few squares of forest at a time. Perhaps increasing New Forest growth in these 'burned out squares' so you've got something like the natural equilibium you see in the real world between fires and new growth.

** Hell Terrain ***
Losing the ability to terraform Hell terrains (even if you are Infernal and want the hell terrain) kinda hurts. Burning Sands is the worst since it tends to shut you out of metal/gold/gems resources. Since Infernal doesn't need food, happiness and money resources are more important.

Thanks for listening to my rambling,

Vilnon

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Spoiler :

Played a few games now, a few rambling comments.

I don't like how the pacing has changed. Basically, once Infernal has been Summoned the end game has begun. Very quickly AV will spread, wars will start etc. Adding Basium just makes in even more 'end gamey'.

Its too easy to rush to Infernal (and somewhat Basium). If your planning on hopping to Infernal/Basium there's no reason to waste time building a 'real' civ. Get up a few cities, enough warriors that the AIs won't molest you, then head straight for your religion. Previously, the need to maintain a functioning Civ ment you couldn't rush to Order/AV very easily.

I also don't really like that summoning Infernal is 'free', and to Summon Basium you need to put hammers into it. That means that Infernal is always going to have a fair number of turns to spread his evil before Basium could even possible show up. Its not really Good vs Evil if Good is always showing up 50 turns late.

Allowing an Order Civ to build the Mercurian Gate before Infernal shows would at least let a Good Civ thats ahead on research to pop out Basium at the same time as the Infernals.

Personal preferance, I really like to see the Summoning of Infernal/Basium tied to a followup tech to the tech that grants the religion. Especially on the AV side, other civs get no warning that Infernal is about to appear because random Civ X is reasearching AV.

In light of my feeling about how the Infernals mean the game has entered its last phases, another Civ researching AV is the same as another Civ starting to build the Tower of Mastery. Differance is that the Tower of Mastery comes so much later. Same problem with the Alter victory. It can happen so much earlier compared to the other victory conditions that I feel short changed by the length of the game.

I agree with another poster's complaint on the almost requirement to have a Water caster to be able to throw Spring on the forest fires. I'd recommend a few things.

a. Reduce the chance fire spreads inside cultural borders. After all, our workers are out there doing something to fight the spread. A possilble source of maintance costs if a balancing factor is needed.

b. consider moving Tree Removal off Bronze Working to an earlier tech perhaps in the constrution line. Its the only way to deal with forest fires outside of Water Magic, and letting smart players build firebreaks without also being forced into the Melee Unit line would be good.

c. Speed up the Burn out time. I have yet to see a forest fire 'go out' on its own (Perhaps it can't, or didn't wait long enough). If fires had a greater chance to end, you wouldn't see as much of the 'whole world on fire' that you see now. Instead you'd see smaller fires that take out a few squares of forest at a time. Perhaps increasing New Forest growth in these 'burned out squares' so you've got something like the natural equilibium you see in the real world between fires and new growth.

Hell Terrain:
Losing the ability to terraform Hell terrains (even if you are Infernal and want the hell terrain) kinda hurts. Burning Sands is the worst since it tends to shut you out of metal/gold/gems resources. Since Infernal doesn't need food, happiness and money resources are more important.

Thanks for listening to my rambling,

Vilnon

I think the main balancing factor with Hyborem and Basium is this: Hyborem could easily turn on you. You can rush for Infernal Pact, but if you get it before tier-3 units, Hyborem may very well turn on you and destroy you. Combine this with the fact that you'll be giving some Civ out there an ally once Hyborem is summoned, and it becomes wiser to not found the Veil until you've researched some other comparable techs as well.

However, I do agree with your points about making forest chopping come sooner, and making the burnout time shorter. Maybe the chance that fire will spread should be tied to the Armageddon counter...

 

[Nikis-Knight]

c. Speed up the Burn out time. I have yet to see a forest fire 'go out' on its own (Perhaps it can't, or didn't wait long enough). If fires had a greater chance to end, you wouldn't see as much of the 'whole world on fire' that you see now. Instead you'd see smaller fires that take out a few squares of forest at a time. Perhaps increasing New Forest growth in these 'burned out squares' so you've got something like the natural equilibium you see in the real world between fires and new growth.

If fires never go out, that could be a bug. I like the sound of new forests in the ashes.

a. Reduce the chance fire spreads inside cultural borders. After all, our workers are out there doing something to fight the spread. A possilble source of maintance costs if a balancing factor is needed.

That's an interesting idea, using workers to put out fires. Maybe moving a working onto a smoking/flaming tile gives a 50% chance to put is out but an unrelated 25% chance to lose the unit.

I don't like how the pacing has changed. Basically, once Infernal has been Summoned the end game has begun. Very quickly AV will spread, wars will start etc. Adding Basium just makes in even more 'end gamey'.

The price for the later two religons was decreased. Perhaps it could go back up if Hyboream is strong enough to make room for himself.

 

[Bitwise]

I was kind of thinking that tying the Infernals to Corruption of Spirit instead of Infernal Pact might flow better. That way civs have to convert to AV to summon him instead of just dabbling with the demons like it is now.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I was kind of thinking that tying the Infernals to Corruption of Spirit instead of Infernal Pact might flow better. That way civs have to convert to AV to summon him instead of just dabbling with the demons like it is now.

Thematically it works better as is--you breach the barrier and the infernals come, like it or not. But for the computer AI's, bringing in the Infernals before switching to their religion can be disasterous, and potentially cripple them both.