FfH2 0.30 Balance Issues

[Ringtailed]

I think I mentioned this before, but I'm currently of the opinion that all civs should get Agriculture or Ancient Chants as their starting tech. This is because education is first priority in the beginning. If you happen to have particularly good luck with random map generators and have wine or gold nearby, Crafting is great. But, assuming an average/poor start, not having Ag or AC means that everything you do will be delayed significantly. I think this is generally bad for balance.

Agree/disagree?

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

The Council of Essus has a ton of potential but I still think their lack of both temples *and* disciple units is a severe weakness. It makes them much more of a guild than an actual religion. I think a few priests could be added for the Council in such a way that wouldn't break the concept of the religion. I'm going to start a separate thread to launch the suggestion though.

I'd also love to see a second world hero for both the Empyrean and Council of Essus, but I've got no ideas for them myself.

 

[Sarisin]

I think I mentioned this before, but I'm currently of the opinion that all civs should get Agriculture or Ancient Chants as their starting tech. This is because education is first priority in the beginning. If you happen to have particularly good luck with random map generators and have wine or gold nearby, Crafting is great. But, assuming an average/poor start, not having Ag or AC means that everything you do will be delayed significantly. I think this is generally bad for balance.

Agree/disagree?

What if your starting position has mostly water tiles? Wouldn't Fishing be the appropriate starting tech there?

I think Exploration is important too as it gives you the ability to build roads to your resources.

I agree with you that starting with Agriculture or Ancient Chants is an advantage for a civ, but I don't think every civ should get one or the other. Aren't there still a few civs that don't get a starting tech?

Crafting is also good for the dwarves and anyone who wants to go for the Runes of Kilmorph religion first.

And, I hate to say it, but, some like me really like to get Cartography early on so I can build the Pact of the Nilhorn which gives me three quite powerful HN units early on.

I think it all depends on which civ you are playing and, of course, your starting position. I look at those two things and decide my strategy on what to research next.

I see what your point is, but I disagree that every civ needs one or the other tech for balance.

 

[Jenaelha]

I think Razing Villages is out of balance.

Sure, the razing unit/stack exposes itself to attack from a nearby city, but there is no other risk. How about a defensive penalty to represent the 'real world' difficulty an invading force would face from the Village populace/malitia. And as the repelling force from the city comes out to attack the invaders, it represents the assistance a Village population would provide.
As the Villages develop, their defensive penalty (like sand tiles' -25% def bonus) would increase.

This still wouldn't pose and barrier to razing, it would just increase the exposure a little making it that much more of an interesting gamble. And razing other, non-village, improvements would remain easy pickings (no def bonus) for the invader because they have no malitia to protect them.

 

[xienwolf]

I assume you mean Pillaging the Village/Town Improvements?

 

[Ringtailed]

@Sarisin

You don't always get water tiles. You always get *some* flat land. Exploration is important, but after you establish some sort of commerce income. Roads don't help with commerce so they are a secondary consideration. The ones who don't get a starting tech are the barbarian civs (I think they should get a tech too). Crafting is good, like I said, if you have wine or gold(if you have a lot of either of these two, it's actually overpowered). Otherwise it is a liability, even if you are going for RoK because 9 commerce per turn isn't going to get you there any time soon (ancient chants is also on the path to early religions). Researching Cartography is fine too... after you have some sort of commerce income, which usually requires cottages. Otherwise you will not have an economy which means no further research and no expansion.

@anyone who cares to read

Originally I felt differently about this, but have since changed my opinion. Randomness is still good; some starts will be better than others and that is fine. But I feel that everyone should have at least a chance to compete regardless. I'd rather my random early game difficulties come from a sudden barb invasion, Orthus spawning in my backyard, the sailor's dirge(I miss that thing) or some other event that I can actually use my noggin and respond to, instead of one where my only real option is to press "end turn" an extra 20 times before I can start to actually play the game.

One other thing that sticks out in my mind here is that, in Vanilla civ, each civ gets two techs and it does not take nearly as long to research the early resource techs as in FFH so it's still roughly balanced for different civs to get different techs. But here, starting techs take much longer to research and you only get one so the one that you do get is of critical importance.

If I'm the only one who thinks this it's fine, I'm just bringing it up because I feel it's better for the mod. I play mostly SP so I can just change the XML myself.

 

[Jenaelha]

I assume you mean Pillaging the Village/Town Improvements?

Yes, thanks.

 

[Sisonpyh]

I think Razing Villages is out of balance.

Sure, the razing unit/stack exposes itself to attack from a nearby city, but there is no other risk. How about a defensive penalty to represent the 'real world' difficulty an invading force would face from the Village populace/malitia. And as the repelling force from the city comes out to attack the invaders, it represents the assistance a Village population would provide.
As the Villages develop, their defensive penalty (like sand tiles' -25% def bonus) would increase.

This still wouldn't pose and barrier to razing, it would just increase the exposure a little making it that much more of an interesting gamble. And razing other, non-village, improvements would remain easy pickings (no def bonus) for the invader because they have no malitia to protect them.

Believe me, razing improvements/cities is completely broke and imbalanced in vanilla Civ as well, I hate it. Not sure how much that can be changed though, since it seems to be a core gameplay feature within the engine.

 

[Mailbox]

I think fishing comes a bit late for some civilizations. Other than that, I think the starting techs are ok.

One thing about improvements that I would like to see the main mod add is the ability to build all improvements on appropriate squares. Wineries would make Crafting a good starting tech and ancient chants could provide some other small bonus.

 

[Sarisin]

@Sarisin

You don't always get water tiles. You always get *some* flat land. Exploration is important, but after you establish some sort of commerce income. Roads don't help with commerce so they are a secondary consideration. The ones who don't get a starting tech are the barbarian civs (I think they should get a tech too). Crafting is good, like I said, if you have wine or gold(if you have a lot of either of these two, it's actually overpowered). Otherwise it is a liability, even if you are going for RoK because 9 commerce per turn isn't going to get you there any time soon (ancient chants is also on the path to early religions). Researching Cartography is fine too... after you have some sort of commerce income, which usually requires cottages. Otherwise you will not have an economy which means no further research and no expansion.

You make some good points, Ringtailed.

The point I was trying to make with the Fishing example is that mainly two things determine which way you will go with research:

1. Civ you are playing
2. Starting position

For example, I am certain in the case of the ai elves and dwarves it is hardwired that they pursue a path towards FOL and ROK religion founding no matter what (that they get a little help along the way with goodie huts cannot be proven, but, I say it happens ) However, when I am playing one of those civs, I may or may not pursue the same path.

Also, your success with goodie huts or lack thereof (I seem to get just maps Monarch and above!) might influence your research. If I am lucky enough to pop Mysticism and Hunting, I just might try to beat the elves to FOL.

I do agree with your point that every civ should have a starting tech. That levels the playing field. Of course, I suppose, for those who do not, they may be compensated in some other way.

I guess it is all up to your personal playing style. I usually put researching Education on the back burner in favor of things like Cartography or even Calendar/Festivals. Again, I may adjust my strategy depending on the civ and starting position I get - I always let the computer randomly select for me.

One reason I go for Cartography and Pact of the Nilhorn is that I always play raging barbs/aggAI and need those Three Stooges. They usually seem to come just about the time the raging barbs do. If I postponed Cartography in favor of Education, I might lose those pretty cottages, villages, etc. to the barb hoards. Moe, Larry, and Curley are also great using their HN status to go out and pillage those commerce-income generators of the AI.

I enjoyed reading your ideas.

 

[Grunthex]

Random brainstorming on the Water sphere, based on the recent discussions re: water/fire

Make the 'Spring' effect a passive effect of water mana. Similar to how earth mana can create resources for you, just having water mana cleans up those deserts. Obviously (to me!) much more likely than the earth effect. Make sure you don't improve the flood plain deserts.

Reasons: Currently, everyone wants 1 spring adept, and mostly doesn't want water otherwise (theme-play aside). This takes out the need for those who don't want to build a water node, AND gives the AI a good chance from blight recovery if they happen to own water mana.

Spells:

Level 1 - Water Walking. As present. If possible, (bonus!) add treats coast (and sea, or maybe not) as roads.

Level 2 - (Better name needed) Sap Walls. Gives a 50% chance per cast of destroying walls, wall of stones, palisades (if those are added) in target city. (range 1, so you have to escort your mage next to the walls). Also give a 25% chance of destroying larger defensive structures (Castles, anything I can't think of). %s are subject to balancing.

Level 3 - Water Elemental, at whatever str is appropriate for T3. No reason not to go with Kael's current changes and see how it works out.

Non-Water change that goes with this: Remove bombardment from fireballs/meteors.

Suddenly, you have choices. Fire is solid still, for blowing things up collateral style, as it should. But you have a magical source of bombardment for those who refuse to use siege, to soften up city defenses. Sure, it's not going to suppress the cultural defense, but with the new changes, that seems fair. You can take down the walls real nice.

Anyway, those are my 0dark:30 thoughts.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Divine retributions still seems too strong. (current patch) It killed a perfectly healthy Sevareous.

 

[Moxxa]

I think the Aggressive / Raider leader of the Hippus is unbalanced. It's too easy to beeline currency for the Go9, then Trade to start bringing in the Tech for Gold trades, allowing you to produce waaaaaaaaaay to many Super Mercs. Make them more expensive, limit them to hiring one per city per turn, make the spreading of the guild actually consume the unit, something. These guys are totally broken for SP. I already posted a thread on this in the strategy forums.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

make the spreading of the guild actually consume the unit

This already happens

 

[phoulishwan]

I think the Aggressive / Raider leader of the Hippus is unbalanced. It's too easy to beeline currency for the Go9, then Trade to start bringing in the Tech for Gold trades, allowing you to produce waaaaaaaaaay to many Super Mercs. Make them more expensive, limit them to hiring one per city per turn, make the spreading of the guild actually consume the unit, something. These guys are totally broken for SP. I already posted a thread on this in the strategy forums.

Amusingly enough I just got done playing as Tasunke founding the Go9 and consuming the world with Mounted Mercs. It wasn't my intention but when shortly after founding Go9 and getting declared on by Alexis who had vassalized half the world and was merrily warmongering away while I was just trying to be a peacful builder type. When she knocked on my doorstep with 9 Vamps and countless bloodpets at one of my weak points I thought I was in Dire straights, I used to love going for Go9 for the Ogre, which is exactly what I'd done, but now after realising how quickly you can mass a serious game over stack of Mounted Mercs (which I needed to defend myself) I have to agree the Go9 could use some downplaying, as once I repulsed her attack I had all these damn mercs costing me maintenance, I ended up taking so many cities with them I don't think I fixed my problem of lowering my maintenance costs ;p

I do feel the need to mention to Moxxa a couple points regarding curent mechanics however. Spreading the guild does consume the unit that spread it and a unit can only recruit once per turn. The problem is if you already have 10 units in the city that means 10 units the first turn 20 the second 40 the 3rd...etc...add in copper/iron and you don't need to be Tasunke to make overpowered use of the Go9, Tasunke just makes an already over powered tictac a bit more powerful with a couple free promos. Another issue with it is of course using it offensively, while it may be a little risky against a smart player, far less so against AI...let's say you ransack an opponents city with 20 Mercs, 5-10 die trying to crack it open but the rest move in, you simply lose one more to spread the guild while the rest of the remaining force multiply faster than rabbits, this provides a securing force to defend the city along with fresh units to push deeper and deeper into your opponents turf, the only limiting factor is how deep your pockets are, and it makes no difference that your empire could be on the completely opposite side of the ocean.

I can't imagine how I would feel about having this used against me in a multiplayer game...fortunately I don't play multiplayer so I won't ever have to find out But I would suggest to anyone who sees the Go9 being founded in an opponents lands, starting massing a VERY sizeable force to counter, minimum 5/5 mounted units FAST, it's also safe to assume they'll be at least copper equipped, so cold damage will definately help but then expect them to be 6/6.

I think another game breaker is slave trade's form cash rushing, recruit unlimited amount of slaves per turn to sacrifice for production. 10 gold per 15 hammers (err, for flavors sake I mean slaves) is so much cheaper than normal cash rushing, that there's no reason not to go for slave trading if you want a cash rushing civic. Normal speed game I was buying wonders at around 600G the turn after researching enbaling techs.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Maybe some situation where every extra unit you buy in one turn (by whatever mechanism, slaves, mercenaries, others later) get progressively more expensive, and extra 33% or so.

 

[phoulishwan]

Maybe some situation where every extra unit you buy in one turn (by whatever mechanism, slaves, mercenaries, others later) get progressively more expensive, and extra 33% or so.

I don't think that would necessarily do it. You could essentially still just plan this out ahead and have plenty of cash reserves to pull it off fast, maybe not as many units as currently, but still...I think either a building requirement or a limit on max mercenaries limit would be a better solution, definately not as restrictve as National Units but say a max somewhere in the range of 10-20 mercs, if that's possible? I honestly think the bigger problem though is the speed you can amass the force, even if they only cost 1 hammer per unit to be built if you force them to be "built" instead of instantly popping out (which I know is the whole idea in the first place) then you can fix the issue of having a stack of 40 units ready to conquer the world the turn you found the Go9. Either that or eliminate the mounted variety and stick with just the basic infantry which isn't nearly as desireable for an offensive with just 1 movement point.

Oh, one other thing which I don't know if it's intentional or not, but these mounted mercs can fortify and make no mention of not getting defensive bonuses, so for all intents and purposes they are basically infantry units with all the good characteristics of mounted units and none of the bad.

As far as the slave trade issue, I think it's good you can use it as a means of cash rushing, that's what slave trading is all about at least from my point of view. Unlimited slave buying per turn isn't a bad thing, it's the gold per hammer ratio that needs adjusting imo. Perhaps it should be cheaper than a normal cash rushing civic, Esus is advertised as being a bonus to your commerce so maybe 2 or 3 gold per hammer, I think a straight cash rushing civic like Arete is 4 to 1?

 

[Moxxa]

I don't think that would necessarily do it. You could essentially still just plan this out ahead and have plenty of cash reserves to pull it off fast, maybe not as many units as currently, but still...I think either a building requirement or a limit on max mercenaries limit would be a better solution, definately not as restrictve as National Units but say a max somewhere in the range of 10-20 mercs, if that's possible? I honestly think the bigger problem though is the speed you can amass the force, even if they only cost 1 hammer per unit to be built if you force them to be "built" instead of instantly popping out (which I know is the whole idea in the first place) then you can fix the issue of having a stack of 40 units ready to conquer the world the turn you found the Go9. Either that or eliminate the mounted variety and stick with just the basic infantry which isn't nearly as desireable for an offensive with just 1 movement point.

Oh, one other thing which I don't know if it's intentional or not, but these mounted mercs can fortify and make no mention of not getting defensive bonuses, so for all intents and purposes they are basically infantry units with all the good characteristics of mounted units and none of the bad.

I don't think that placing a maximum number on the mercs you can control would fix the problem. The player would just hire a new merc to replace the old one as soon as it was dead. This just limts the size of the stack you can create at one time. The problem is how quickly and easily they can be created anywhere, limited only by your gold.

The easiest solution would be to make them more expensive. The current strategy would still work, it would just be slower and require more micromangement by the player. This is the easiest, but I don't think its best.

The best way balance this feature would be to limit the number of mercs a player can hire per city per turn. One should be enough. This would force the player to spread the guild to more cities (making the whole process cost more gold and time) and slow the entire process down by making it take more turns to replace a lost merc in the stack.

 

[phoulishwan]

The best way balance this feature would be to limit the number of mercs a player can hire per city per turn. One should be enough. This would force the player to spread the guild to more cities (making the whole process cost more gold and time) and slow the entire process down by making it take more turns to replace a lost merc in the stack.

I like this idea!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I personally think that the costs of both mercenaries and slaves should be based on supply and demand. Each time you buy one, the price goes up a little, and whenever you sell (or disband I guess) one it goes down.