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FfH2 0.30 Balance Issues

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
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    120 gold cost and potentially limitless mercenaries bought in a single city makes them somewhat powerful in the hands of a human player. I'll use an example to illustrate...

    5000 gold in the bank - not too hard to achieve (10-15 turns with a mid-game economy). Sail a small landing force including at least one mercenary to the enemy land and conquer one city (as small and undefended as possible).

    I'll assume that 6 units survive, including the mercenary (more or fewer just make the next quicker or slower). Use the Merc to spread the guild, use all 5 of the other units to buy a mercenary. Next turn, all 10 units buy 10 more mercenaries. Then 20 more. By this point we've spent about 4200 gold on the attack force, but we have 35 mercenaries in the city for a basic strength of 175. Add in Iron weapons and we're at 245. That's going to hurt.

    Make it Hippus and we've got 35 strength 7 units with Commando and high movement connected to the enemy road network...


    Possible improvements
    If a single guild "branch" were only allowed to hire a single mercenary per turn, it would prevent this (similar to old "airlift attack" that was blocked in vanilla) and also increase the value of spreading the Guild of the Nine as multiple branches would allow you to raise a greater-sized force more rapidly.

    It may be useful to include a random event that allows the hiring of a single mercenary (requiring Currency as a prereq) such that the "non-founding" players have a chance to obtain mercenaries also.

    If the guild-branches acted as the BtS corporations and provided an income bonus to the head-quarters for each branch, the benefits of spreading the guild becomes greater still, whilst maintaining the flavour.

    This also preserves the value of obtaining currency first, even if other players can hire mercenaries, you're going to profit from it.

    Alternatively, each time a civ buys a mercenary, the headquarters could pay out a small sum (10 gold?) to the owning player.

    "The Illians have hired some of our mercenaries. The Guild of Nine has paid it's tithe to the treasury"

    To further complicate things, the ability to hire a mercenary may also be limited to civs with which the founder is not at war.
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Frankly I don't see why mercenaries are so great, since they don't start with any promotions or experiance. It seems like they are really only good for temprary defenders to prevent a city from being captured, not a real professional army (and the Hippus ones are worse, not better, since as mounted units they don't get defensive boni); having 35 of them wouldn't be all that good, since they would be a drain on the economy rather than an effective attack force.

    I still think that mercenary should be a promotion instead of a unit, and that hireing a mercenary should just trigger an event that lets you negotiate to hire different types of mercenaries, with different races, experiance, promotions, religions, cost, etc, plus the mercenary promotion. (Assuming that it would be too complicated to include mercenaries like in Rhye's, but requiring the guild in cities in order to hire mercenaries or contract out your own units.) Perhaps these events could be limited to once per turn or once per city per turn, but if so some of the options should allow you to contract a group of mercenaries instead of a single unit. The mercenary promotion would allow spreading the guild, would increase the upkeep cost, make the unit abandon you if you run out of many (possibly tunring batbarian rather than just dieing), and would make them sometimes switch sides instead of dieing when they are defeated. It might also be nice if it could make them cost a small amount of gold for each battle they fight, and if the amount of gold you have effects the units morale (assuming the morale mechanic is implemented)

    Are you sure it doesn't already act like a corperation as far as having a maintenance cost but bonus income in the headquarteers in concerned? I thought that all the guilds that have a headquarters acted this way already. I think that the Ratcatheers Guild and the Guild of the Nine should definately behave like this, but I don't think I like limiting who can hire mercenaries based to those at peace with the guild's headquarter's owner.

    I think that whenever a player gets currency they should get a mercenary or unit witht he mercenary promotion, and the first of which could found the guild and the others to spread it , probably without actually costing you the unit (just like the Aeron's chosen promotion currently works)
     
  3. bcr1776

    bcr1776 Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
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    If you are playing one of the civs that are not frustrated by CoD it is a very nice to have indeed.
     
  4. Sareln

    Sareln Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
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    211
    Location:
    Davis, CA
    Cosmetic / Balance Issue:

    Arquebus units can gain the enchanted arrows promotion since they're in the archery line of units. I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but it feels a little weird.
     
  5. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
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    They're effective enough at Strength 7 and whilst you're fighting the campaign, your economy is tailored toward pumping out mercenaries in large numbers to replace any you lose from the horde. They also gain any promotions that are provided by your civ - so in the case of Aggressive and Raider leaders, you'll be starting with Combat I and Commando respectively (notably Tasunke's mercenaries can race from the opponents border and swarm over cities very quickly indeed using his own roads - which is actually great fun for the player - not so good for the AI).

    I love the mechanic, I'd just like to limit it a little. Can you think of any comparable unit that can be "hurried" for 120 gold? The Mercenaries can be "hurried" once per unit in the city each turn, and lacks the sizable downside that drafting had. If each city could generate 1 mercenary per turn, I'd feel it was about perfect.

    ==

    In other news - I had a play around at implementing some of the bits I was talking about...

    In CvSpellInterface.py
    Code:
    def reqRecruitMercenary(caster):
    	pPlot = caster.plot()
    	pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
    	if pCity.isHasCorporation(gc.getInfoTypeForString('CORPORATION_GUILD_OF_THE_NINE')) == False:
    		return False
    	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
    	if pPlayer.isHuman() == False:
    		if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD'):
    			return False
    		iX = caster.getX()
    		iY = caster.getY()
    		eTeam = gc.getTeam(pPlayer.getTeam())
    		for iiX in range(iX-1, iX+2, 1):
    			for iiY in range(iY-1, iY+2, 1):
    				pPlot = CyMap().plot(iiX,iiY)
    				for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
    					pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
    					p2Player = gc.getPlayer(pUnit.getOwner())
    					e2Team = p2Player.getTeam()
    					if eTeam.isAtWar(e2Team) == True:
    						return True
    		return False
    ### MERC MOD
    	if pCity.isDrafted():
    		return False
    ### /MERC MOD		
    	return True
    	
    		
    def spellRecruitMercenary(caster):
    
    	pPlot = caster.plot()
    	pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
    
    	if pCity.isHasCorporation(gc.getInfoTypeForString('CORPORATION_GUILD_OF_THE_NINE')) == False:
    		return False
    	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
    
    	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
    	iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_MERCENARY')
    	infoCiv = gc.getCivilizationInfo(pPlayer.getCivilizationType())
    	iUnit = infoCiv.getCivilizationUnits(iUnit)
    	newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, caster.getX(), caster.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
    	newUnit.finishMoves()
    	newUnit.setHasCasted(True)
    	if caster.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_MAGNADINE'):
    		newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_LOYALTY'), True)
    		
    ### MERC MOD
    	if CyGame().isCorporationFounded(gc.getInfoTypeForString('CORPORATION_GUILD_OF_THE_NINE')):
        		mercCity = gc.getGame().getHeadquarters(gc.getInfoTypeForString('CORPORATION_GUILD_OF_THE_NINE'))
       		pMercCityOwner = gc.getPlayer(mercCity.getOwner());
        		pCity.setDrafted(1)    		
        		if mercCity.getOwner() == caster.getOwner():
    			newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_DRILL1'), True)
        		else:
        			pMercCityOwner.changeGold (10);
        			CyInterface().addMessage(mercCity.getOwner(),True,25, pPlayer.getName() + ' has hired a mercenary. The guild pays a tithe of 10 gold to your treasury.','Art/Interface/Buttons/Corporations/Guild of the Nine.dds',ColorTypes(8),newUnit.getX(),newUnit.getY(),True,True)
    ### /MERC MOD
    If the Player founded the Guild of the Nine, his mercenaries gain Drill I (the guild provides their best warriors to their patron). Any time a mercenary is hired by a non-founder, the founder receives 10 gold.

    When a mercenary is hired, the "drafted" flag is set for the city (exactly as if a unit had been drafted from it, but without the unhappiness) and this is checked as a requirement for using the ability. The result is that you can only hire one mercenary from each city per turn.
    ==

    EDIT: I've just noticed that there's already an event that allows the possibility of randomly acquiring mercenaries after Currency - albeit with a fairly low weighting.
     
  6. bcr1776

    bcr1776 Warlord

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    Very interesting concept, AND it gives another way to use all the money that you build up. Difficult to code? (Python to me is a very large reptile, I'm ok with HTML)
     
  7. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    bah, the lowly water I spell can turn off fires and it can do instantly and in all sorrounding tiles, unlike Blaze.
     
  8. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
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    The code directly above the portion you quoted implements those changes - the two added sections are marked as "### MERC MOD".
     
  9. bcr1776

    bcr1776 Warlord

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    Pretty sure that code was squeezed through a very large reptile.:lol:
     
  10. westamastaflash

    westamastaflash Lord Commander

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    933
    Please fix slaves before mercs though. Slaves are just *broken*.
     
  11. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Location:
    Torino - Italia
    I cannot stress enough how The Clan and Doviello need to get something in change of the loss of Libraries. They are currently suffering major balance problems, due to:

    1- Animals/Giants now attacking the barbarian leaders (it used not to be so). This means no earlier exploration than other civs for Doviello, and LATER exploration for the Clan, since your scouts (goblins) are even penalized in the movement. This was really a big nerf that I can't quite understand.
    2- Orc warriors and Goblins appearance has been delayed (probably to help animal capture). This means no earlier expansion than other civs.
    3- Mahala doesn't even have the barbarian trait but can't build Libraries and has no starting tech...

    The barbarian trait is good late in the game because you won't suffer from the Apocalypse Knights (actually , you will rejoce ^^). But that's a miserable counter to having 35% less research potential than normal civs, and about 50% less to elves.
     
  12. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    Location:
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    I've heard that the Grigoriu are fond of founding the council of esus. They cant adopt a religion so it doesn't spread at all.

    Also, in a recent game with them, the sidar founded the empyrean in late-middle game, I had been slowly converting civs from Fol to the Order as the Lurchip and everyone but flauros and grigori were Order.

    Anyway, as a result Empyrean was a pretty local religion, founded, bizarrely on a tundra island, in the far north, where I doubt they'd ever even see the sun. However, across the world, it did spread to a couple of towns including a grigori one via natural spread.

    A few turns later, every single Grigori town was empyrean! THe sidar were order and as far as I know not particularly freindly with them so they had no reason to spread empy to them. But they shouldnt be able to spread it themselves? and religion spreads slower to their cities?

    I'm not using te latest patch though so this may have already been fixed.
     
  13. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    Aye - but it's tricky to implement in HTML :)

    Given the poster is capable of handling HTML, tis not too hard to manage a copy-paste given a file name and the context around where it needs to go :)
     
  14. SwordofStriker

    SwordofStriker Prince

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    I can confirm this. The Grigori have founded the Council of Esus in every one of my games so far. I am still on patch e for the moment.
     
  15. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    ya, both empyrean and esus are often founded by the same neutral civ who will not adopt either, so its not just a grigori problem, they just happen to be neutral as well, and are just completely incapable of adopting either.

    Illians often found Esus and don't adopt, and im constantly seeing a neutral civilization like Khazad who has a big tech lead founding Esus and Empyrean and adopting neither in favour of an early religion like Runes.

    Honor and Deception need to be handled more like religion techs, or there needs to be two new techs for founding each of those religions for two reasons:
    1. so Grigori (and ideally Illians as well) dont found them.. which is especially bad in the case of Esus with its bizarre "you must have this religion in order to spread it so only the founder can ever have it unless you get both lucky with a natural spread and research it as well"
    2. to help separate the religions from each other tech wise. currently both empyrean and esus require only 1 tech different, and those techs are both off of the same tech, and those techs are both exceptionally cheap for their tech level, and its late in the game so its further compounded and you see both religions being found one a few turns after the other.
    The reason for it being this way is so grigori can still adopt the councils, but thats not enough reason to cause the problems associated and it can be solved other ways.


    Honor should require a tech that has a bigger tech tree displacement than the difference between ways of wise and ways of wicked, like feudalism or priesthood, Deception should require a different tech like Poisons for the same reason.
     
  16. anisotropy

    anisotropy Minister of Silly Walks

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    Why not just find a way to make those leaders with the Agnostic trait unable to found a religion? Even if they research that tech, then the next person to research it will found the religion. It would make sense to me that those leaders who choose not to follow the gods would then choose to not allow the founding of a religion in their lands.

    Is something like that feasible?
     
  17. Tobbe_1

    Tobbe_1 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    48
    I think shades should lose their promotions upon transformation. The reason: unlimited archmages and unlimited high priests!

    Imagine a high level altar with order religion...only a few more xp are needed to turn a confessor into a high priest, turn him into a shade and build some new...pillar of flames is coming!
     
  18. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    That'd be cool.
     
  19. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    589
    AI use March of the Trees (Ljos world spell) in a bad way. Treants don't leave Ljos cultural borders and that is a fatal mistake.

    Once I invade Ljosalfar territory they call March. As my stack was on the forest tile it was pushed by the treant back to my territory. And that was all: I had a rest and after three turns continued my invasion. But several of my cities were near the border and treants were able to capture them as well as destroy my army if they entered my borders.
     
  20. bcr1776

    bcr1776 Warlord

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    It is strange, I have seen this problem posted several times, but I have only once had to build more than three cities before I had it. And then it is groups of two-three-four plots of it. great trade item.
     

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