First Three Social Policies

[Civsassin]

@bhavv

What walkerjks was alluding to is the lost turns from destroying barbarian encampments. Unless you approach them with 2-3 warriors/spearman, you will not take them easily. You are better served getting a couple of scouts out. 15 or 30 per CS discovered and the benefits of available ruins outweighs the wasted turns to find and destroy barb encampments.

On the other hand, either tactic is viable. It is more a sylistic thing than an absolute. I prefer to get the scouts out. they are cheaper to produce, and IMO you'll get the most benefit - ruins, CSs, meeting civs, discovering wonders, and situational awareness.

 

[bhavv]

Depends on if you have ruins on.

I always turn them off because they are too random and imbalanced.

 

[Civsassin]

Depends on if you have ruins on.

I always turn them off because they are too random and imbalanced.

I concur, but I think the vast majority of players keep them on.

 

[bhavv]

Also I hate wasting turns building scouts at the start of the game, that plus the randomness of ruins makes me switch them off.

A lot of times when I send either a scout or a warrior to explore, if I ignore barbarian camps and pop ruins instead, most of the time they simply tell me that the barbarian encampment I already passed by is nearby, or they simply reveal some of the map while the AI are picking up free gold, culture and techs.

Ruins simply annoy me, and I feel disadvantaged in every game with them on, and training scouts slows me down.

 

[Civsassin]

Also I hate wasting turns building scouts at the start of the game, that plus the randomness of ruins makes me switch them off.

A lot of times when I send either a scout or a warrior to explore, if I ignore barbarian camps and pop ruins instead, most of the time they simply tell me that the barbarian encampment I already passed by is nearby, or they simply reveal some of the map while the AI are picking up free gold, culture and techs.

Ruins simply annoy me, and I feel disadvantaged in every game with them on, and training scouts slows me down.

From my experience, ruins are more useful than that. I often get free techs, 30 , or gold, but I do get the occassional barb camp location. However, I also find when I build the initial scout, I get more, and I can keep my warrior closer to home for protection.

 

[slobberinbear]

From my experience, ruins are more useful than that. I often get free techs, 30 , or gold, but I do get the occassional barb camp location. However, I also find when I build the initial scout, I get more, and I can keep my warrior closer to home for protection.

This. I scout with my warrior for about 10-15 turns, then send him home. Warrior + ranged city defense = dead barbarians. While I normally don't build a worker right away (and thus have no tiles to pillage early), it won't do to learn the Citizenship policy but be unable to move your worker due to barbarians.

I will occasionally build two scouts, depending on the map, before anything else.

 

[CYZ]

I think the fact opinions are so very divided about which start is best in which situation means the devs did a really good job!

I still take honor in some cases though, still great for early/mid war and barb hunting (with aztecs for example),

There has been many times post-patch that I've really been struggling to decide which policy to go for. Although I must say the early policies are definitly more interesting than the later ones.

 

[Deathwing]

Starting build: Scout -> Scout (if not reached pop 2 yet) --> Settler x3
Starting policies: Tradition -> Liberty -> Settler one --> Production one -> Citizenship
Starting tech: Mining -> Bronze -> Iron

That catches most ruins in a pangaea and by turn 35 you have 5 cities producing swordsmen.
Micromanage your capital to max production on settlers (you don't need food when building settler).
Capture some workers from CSs and improve luxuries to keep neutral/positive happiness as well.

 

[Civsassin]

This. I scout with my warrior for about 10-15 turns, then send him home. Warrior + ranged city defense = dead barbarians. While I normally don't build a worker right away (and thus have no tiles to pillage early), it won't do to learn the Citizenship policy but be unable to move your worker due to barbarians.

I will occasionally build two scouts, depending on the map, before anything else.

I particularly enjoy when my scout gets promoted to an archer. I'll usually bring it back to my capital and build another scout. Scouts are much cheaper than archers to build, and the end result is a mech infantry with no terrain penalty. How can you beat that???

 

[slobberinbear]

I think the fact opinions are so very divided about which start is best in which situation means the devs did a really good job!

I still take honor in some cases though, still great for early/mid war and barb hunting (with aztecs for example),

There has been many times post-patch that I've really been struggling to decide which policy to go for. Although I must say the early policies are definitly more interesting than the later ones.

The struggle I have with Honor is that it offers nothing for my production or expansion. It is purely military, at least until the +happy/garrison policy. I have to be very sure I am going military early and that I have a way to get the workers/settler(s) I need.

Now when it works (i.e., you have 4-6 nearby iron, a pile of gold and 4-6 warriors to instantly upgrade, and a great general ready to lead them to bloody slaughter), it is great fun.

The later policies (I assume you mean policy trees) are nice too. The only downside really is that you have to choose between three viable alternatives (Piety, Patronage, and Commerce) when you really could use all three, and that the policy slowdown is very noticeable in this phase unless you have taken great pains to maintain your culture output.

 

[CYZ]

The struggle I have with Honor is that it offers nothing for my production or expansion. It is purely military, at least until the +happy/garrison policy. I have to be very sure I am going military early and that I have a way to get the workers/settler(s) I need.

Now when it works (i.e., you have 4-6 nearby iron, a pile of gold and 4-6 warriors to instantly upgrade, and a great general ready to lead them to bloody slaughter), it is great fun.

The later policies (I assume you mean policy trees) are nice too. The only downside really is that you have to choose between three viable alternatives (Piety, Patronage, and Commerce) when you really could use all three, and that the policy slowdown is very noticeable in this phase unless you have taken great pains to maintain your culture output.

I disagree that later policies/branches are as usefull as the early ones. Free setlers, free GP, +2 food and 15% growth, the gold/happyness bonus for the capital. It's all very strong early on and it's easy to get.

The later abilities are more difficult to get and simply less usefull for two reasons.
1. Your empire is more advanced and thus the effect per policy is smaller and
2. Alot of those policies only work well if you combine them with the rest of the branch, whereass the early policies allow for cherrypicking.

 

[chazzycat]

I love the choices now. Tradition and Liberty are both awesome, and depending on the type of game you pursue can both set you on a great track as a builder. Honor remains viable for warmongers as well.

I usually end up going 1 of 4 routes:

- pure liberty. REX is totally viable and certain civs/maps are begging for this approach. In this case I usually go free settler-->free worker-->meritocracy-->representation. Some variations depending on the situation could switch the worker & settler or skip representation. Another variation is if I get free culture from ruins, sometimes I will grab the 1st tradition policy only (extra culture + border popping) before switching to pure liberty.

- pure tradition. This is great for a smallish (4-6 cities) empire. The free culture buildings, landed elite, and monarchy are all awesome for building upwards instead of outwards. If I go tradition I usually end up filling the entire branch before other policies. The order would depend - do I want to build wonders? (aristocracy) Is my capital super food-rich? (monarchy) Do I have lotws of wine & incense? (set up for free monastaries).

- combination of liberty/tradition. Peaceful games where you take the middle road with regards to horizontal/vertical growth can use a combined approach. There are so many different permutations to this...but generally meritocracy and landed elite are the important ones to aim for. The problem with this is that it's a lot of early policies to go for, so you'll be slower to get piety and/or patronage. If you're going the combo route, use liberty while you are waiting to set up your free culture buildings (i.e until you have researched philosophy).

- Honor. I tend to be more of a builder, but certainly will still use honor when the situation dictates. Certain civs just call out for it - Aztecs, Mongols and Germans, come to mind. That first policy to see the barb camps & combat bonus is underrated...it can help protect your early economy from barbs so it's not just a military build. Sometimes I'll grab that before switching to liberty or tradition.

 

[André Alfenaar]

I consider Tradition to be a free SP, so I always start with that. Then I go for liberty. But I seem to be a minority to prefer republic first. My thoughts are that 1 extra production is an enormous boost especially in the beginning as you cities are still small. It will help a lot get monuments and city walls fast, which is great for expanding rapidly.

 

[chazzycat]

Taking tradition first is great in a lot of situations, but I will certainly skip it when I'm in pure-expansion mode. If you're expanding like crazy, culture is pretty tight. Sure that +3 looks good, but is not meaningful for long, and that means your liberty policies are all more expensive than they would be otherwise if you had just started on Liberty. That extra 3 only really helps for your next 1-2 policies...by the 3rd or 4th policy the increased culture costs outweighs the benefit of the 3 culture, and these will be delayed as a result. Meritocracy unfortunately falls into this category, and is just too valuable to delay.

Same problem with republic, not that it's bad, it just makes meritocracy come later. The benefits of a great person are just too strong for almost any situation to delay this policy. Now if it was +2 production, that would open up a whole realm of possibilities and difficult decisions.

 

[slobberinbear]

Taking tradition first is great in a lot of situations, but I will certainly skip it when I'm in pure-expansion mode. If you're expanding like crazy, culture is pretty tight. Sure that +3 looks good, but is not meaningful for long, and that means your liberty policies are all more expensive than they would be otherwise if you had just started on Liberty. That extra 3 only really helps for your next 1-2 policies...by the 3rd or 4th policy the increased culture costs outweighs the benefit of the 3 culture, and these will be delayed as a result. Meritocracy unfortunately falls into this category, and is just too valuable to delay.

Same problem with republic, not that it's bad, it just makes meritocracy come later. The benefits of a great person are just too strong for almost any situation to delay this policy. Now if it was +2 production, that would open up a whole realm of possibilities and difficult decisions.

I agree completely. I like Republic and Representation a lot, and they are both better the sooner you take them, but I still think the instant benefit of Meritocracy is too good to pass up. In my current Darius Golden Age game, I will likely take both of them in the next few policies, along with Landed Elite and Monarchy. But then I also need to start on Piety and maybe Patronage ... so many policies, so little culture ...

 

[PScirocco]

Japanese also makes excellent use of the entire honor tree, have two to three cities, some irons, a bunch of warriors, and slap on monuments + temples. By the time you have steel (gotten through whatever means), you should have enough sp to buy either the cheap military upgrade, or the 1.5xp + GG (if you start with lots of luxuries to sell), straight into 6 samurais to conquer the world with.

Can always supplement the income by sending the warriors to hunt barbs in pairs.

 

[yisas0929]

It feels kinda strange for me that honor has gotten so few votes... ive checked other strategy guides and discussions and everyone seems to agree for all out honor if youre playing immortal or deity... does anyone really go for tradition on immortal or deity? do you have barbarians turned off? seriously i see no way of not going honor, im not even that much of an aggressive player, its just the best choice since the AI is so aggressive...

 

[Tabarnak]

It feels kinda strange for me that honor has gotten so few votes... ive checked other strategy guides and discussions and everyone seems to agree for all out honor if youre playing immortal or deity... does anyone really go for tradition on immortal or deity? do you have barbarians turned off? seriously i see no way of not going honor, im not even that much of an aggressive player, its just the best choice since the AI is so aggressive...

I usually don't go for honor, unless i'm at a point where honor is the best path to finish game earlier than other policies. I usually farm barbs and ennemy units until i get a GG.

 

[Martin Alvito]

ive checked other strategy guides and discussions and everyone seems to agree for all out honor if youre playing immortal or deity...

Anyone saying that would have been making that claim before the .217 patch. Tradition and Liberty are suddenly very strong trees with some highly abusable policies. The key effects of Honor (GG and XP) can be replicated for ranged units with a little patience by plinking a city-state over and over. By contrast, the available from selecting certain Liberty and Tradition policies can only be gained by spending SPs.

 

[King Patrick]

I tried going to Meritocracy early with a Great Engineer and Manufactory outside my capital in my last game - made a huge difference in the game. Rome could suddenly spit out nearly anything I wanted to build, even Wonders if set to production focus.