Foreign Policy: Apolyton

Even, MZ told me they offered him NAP to t260, where they offered us to t240 ;)
 
For now, I managed to make MZ not answer them for 1-2 days. Lets hope this is enough for answer from them.

Damn, we should had been way quicker :(
 
Yeah, I understand that. I think cooperating with Poly for us to share the spoils will get us a better result than trying to keep them in the dark to try to get all the spoils for ourselves. As we move into the leader position, we need to make sure we're keeping MZ close with us to minimize the risk of a dog pile and to keep them in our camp in case other teams (CP and CivFr) do decide to dogpile us.

So, I have no problem letting them know that we are negotiating with UCiv, and offering to split the benefits. Maybe we can get the Great Spy and they can get some gold.
 
Uciv's and WPC's cases now seem light and not big of a deal in the light of the new offer MZ made us. He basically offered us to kill off jointly and part CivFR starting t210. He is afraid CivFR are CP's sidekick and we might have real problems if we let them play their games. Not that we did not suspect this for a very long time. For example MZ believes that CivFR teched Liberalism, only so ot4e can steal it cheap from them. If French does not switch to Free Speech any soon, but ot4e gets Liberalism miraculous, then this will be confirmed. With such a games, we will be always handicapped as we dont have such "trading" partner. Plus, CivFR's lands are great. Mmm, yummy matured towns on lush green land!!!
 
Yes! Let's do this. We'll have to secure the NAP with UCiv and figure out how to throw CP off our tracks. We could tell them we're gearing up to hit WPC next.
 
Yossa makes a good point about us needing to cozy up to Poly.

As for CP being BFFs with CivFr... no surprises there. We have always known/suspected that a CivFr alliance was CPs exit strategy for the alliance with us. I think we should make eliminating CivFr with Poly and splitting the lands our next priority. Let's strike while MZ is in a fighting spirit, because you know how quickly he turns cold when it comes to fighting.:(

Forget about WPC for now, they are no threat to anyone, and anyway, we can't take their lands now that we are score leader, it would make us the next RB for sure. Attacking CivFr with Poly is the opportunity we have been waiting for.
 
I guess WPC will need to wait then... any way we can keep someone else from gobbling them up?
 
cav scout said:
I guess WPC will need to wait then... any way we can keep someone else from gobbling them up?
Click to expand...

Yeah, when all is said and done, CP will be blocked off from WPC by us and Poly.

Spoiler :
attachment.php


On the other side WPC has a long border with UCiv, but we're trying to make them promise not to attack WPC as one of the conditions for the NAP with us.

 
Hmmmm... with UCiv refusing to keep their hands off WPC I'm beginning to wonder if this quick pivot towards CivFr isn't a brilliant move by MZ- Civfanatics gets diverted from getting any WPC lands while taking down the frenchies and leaving CP without their secret ally. UCiv gets WPC lands and then prepares to take us on. Once CivFr has been dismantled Civfanatic is now the score leader and great menace to be dogpiled.
 
And what we said to each-other with MZ:

MZprox: hi
Изпратено в 18:33, неделя
MZprox: has your team decided on the nap with uciv?
аз: hi
we think that NAP to t240 is OK
btw, ot4e came today trying with all he could to make me not make NAP with Uciv, but prepare to attack them instead :)
MZprox: one more reason to make nap with uciv :)
Изпратено в 18:35, неделя
аз: :) this is exactly what I thought
MZprox: btw I calculated that we need 1400goldat least then we can pay it back fast
аз: this is good, as we cant collect more than 2000 gold anyway
on the Great Spy though I think we will insist on buying him
now for the price we can agree I hope
Изпратено в 18:39, неделя
MZprox: i think weshould think of something which is good forboth of us
wecan't know for sure if aztec is going for communism and if they do we can't know if we will get the gspy.
Изпратено в 18:41, неделя
MZprox: so if you ask toomuch for this money I maythink that it's not worth it for us
youare saying that the offered good interest is not enough, because you assume we will gain a lot. but what if we not.
аз: on the other hand, if we dont see good profit for us, we are better off just using our money to tech
well, if you lose the race, obviously we cant insist on the GSpy
MZprox: if you gave aztec loan for 10% and getting the money back in 10+ turns.. i think i can make much better offer :)
I'm not against selling the gspy btw, just want to be sure you understand our position
аз: same with you - I want you to understand our position
I already told we regret giving those money to ot4e :)
MZprox: in any case we will ask that youdon't use the gspy on us. so whatever we agree on it should be included
Изпратено в 18:46, неделя
аз: :) ot4e is on the other line - now he continue the action for making us attack Uciv
when I was asking that we kill off all the rest teams after we finish with RB, he was silent
MZprox: i hope you see aztec as much threat as I do: he can steal techs super cheap from maya..
he may become no.1 in score soon and they have a loyal buddy
a very strong economy
with kreml +sacrificial altars he can raise big armies
i hope you can see this and you would rather let us having the gspy than aztec
since we would probably just settle it
аз: as I said, best variant for us is we to buy the GSpy on reasonable price
MZprox: even if don't get the spy they will steal everything from maya
аз: I can remind you that you already sold ot4e 1 gspy because it was good for your economy.
MZprox: if we don't use this time window to kill maya we may not have a second chance
аз: we want what is best for our economy too
on Maya, I agree
MZprox: i did not realize then what is going on.. i just want to correct that mistake the best I can..
Изпратено в 18:52, неделя
MZprox: the offer on general i can make this: we sell you the gspy on a price which gives you more tech than the gold you gave us for it would give. if we see that we indeed were in race with aztec we will sell it with a significant discount
if we agree on this we can discuss the price
аз: I think we can agree on this
of course, it will depend on the price
MZprox: i can't really tell how will know if aztec was after the gspy, but I'm almost sure we willget communism in the same turn
аз: because "more" can be 50 beakers, can be 50% too
MZprox: thinking about 25%
аз: how much is this in numbers?
in money
to give me idea
MZprox: i will try to calculate it, but now need to go afk for a while
аз: ok, please, come with specific money amount so we can discuss it clearer
I think that measured up in money it will be best and most clear
for me and for my teammates
MZprox: you can make your offer too if you like :)
Изпратено в 19:00, неделя
аз: :) I am afraid it will start to become like our land division and will get sore feelings. ot4e was arrogant enough to tell me he usually starts with 50% more than he desires to have room to step back
if I give you the number we think is reasonable you will automatically treat it as it is 50% less and will try to increase it
Изпратено в 19:02, неделя
аз: :) maybe I must give 50% up too, to have where to step back
Изпратено в 19:04, неделя
MZprox: we stole 7600 beakers from rb for 2900 spy point. some one spy had only 20% stationary bonus and we stolequite far away from our capital
аз: 7600 is in our estimation range too
MZprox: so could we assume you get about 7500 beakers from it?
аз: yes, 7500 we were expecting
Изпратено в 20:03, неделя
MZprox: that'sabout 6250 base beaker so i estimate it is about 5k gold
in value
аз: what you mean 6250 base beakers?
I am not sure myself how this is going to be calculated, so I am trying to understand your math
MZprox: 6250+20%=7500
since you almost get that 20%
almost always
Изпратено в 20:07, неделя
аз: 20% discount for known techs?
MZprox: for prerequisites
аз: yes
so you say 7500 beakers are equal to 6250 normal beakers
7500 spy beakers
MZprox: yes
аз: ok
and 6250 beakers are equal to 5000 gold
MZprox: in myestimation, but it dependson your economy
youprobably have more libraries than markets
academies etc..
though the shrine city changes this ratio uite significally
you can calculate thisfor yourself
Изпратено в 20:12, неделя
аз: yes, we will calculate it for ourselves
MZprox: as youcan see I even underestime the possible gain.. i don't like long haggling :)
Изпратено в 20:20, неделя
аз: so on those supposedly 5000 gold value, you say you will give us 25% discount normally and significant discount if it happens that you are in race with ot4e for COmmunism
MZprox: something like that, yes
i think 4k and 3k is a fair price
аз: well, gains can be of course big, there are of course many possible obstacles to it, if you will insist that we dont use it on you and you being the most advanced nation in the game :)
Изпратено в 20:23, неделя
MZprox: there will be maya for you
i don't want to steal from me mostly,because i don't want to assist you in stealing. normally i would defend my techs
using counterespionage,putting spies in cities where your religion prsents. even closing border..
Изпратено в 20:27, неделя
аз: yes indeed
stealing is not that easy
I will tell you we were thinking about 2000-2500 gold and you dont pay interest on our money if you get the GSpy in race
but this is close enough, I think we can close our positions easy
will go to watch some movie, wifey awaits me :)
tty tomorrow
see you
Click to expand...
 
Wow MZ wants that GSpy really really really badly doesn't he?

For the record I am against selling the GSpy generally, because the Spybomb is such an effective offensive weapon and deterent for many reasons, not least of all peoples irrational fear of espy.

We should keep the GSpy for now and see how desperate MZ is to get it, he may start making ridiculous offers as his desperation to get it grows. Just keep it for now and don't commit to giving to MZ or using it for anything.
 
Sommerswerd said:
Wow MZ wants that GSpy really really really badly doesn't he?

For the record I am against selling the GSpy generally, because the Spybomb is such an effective offensive weapon and deterent for many reasons, not least of all peoples irrational fear of espy.

We should keep the GSpy for now and see how desperate MZ is to get it, he may start making ridiculous offers as his desperation to get it grows. Just keep it for now and don't commit to giving to MZ or using it for anything.
Click to expand...

Notice MZ is already making threats (of running counterespionage, placing spies in every city etc)... he is scared of that GSpy, and we would be fools to sell it to him, or at least not to make him pay a premium price for his fear. If he demands a price tell him that Sommerswerd says that GSpy is the best GPerson in the game by far and is worth at least 10,500 gold. Watch what he says . He wont say "forget it", instead he will try to convince you to take less.
Click to expand...


I think there is some misunderstanding, Sommers. It is us who want to buy MZ's still unborn GSpy, which he will get as free GP from teching to Communism first. We dont really stand a chance to get to Communism first in competition with MZ and Ot4e. MZ would have never give us his future GSpy, if there was not the little detail, that if we dont sponsor him, he will most probably lose it to Ot4e. So his choice at the moment is either he gets loan from us in exchange of his promise to sell the future Communism GSpy to us at good price and get some 2500 - 3000 gold from it, or dont get money from us and simply lose the race to Communism with Ot4e, getting nothing out of it and letting his biggest competitor in the tech sphere win free GSpy with which he can steal super cheap from his buddies CivFR.

For us, acquiring this GSpy will be great in many ways. It will put us on the espionage business scene with flying start. MZ correctly calculates that a GSpy can give us about 7500 beakers worth so selling his GSpy to us for 4000 is already good deal for us (barring the fact that MZ will get so much money to use in his superscience setup and run even more ahead with the techs, while if he keeps the GSpy, he almost have no what to steal from anyone). And 3000 or 2500 gold price to get the GSpy is even better value for us, as we will get almost double the amount of beakers we will be able to output using this sum of gold. BUT!!! If we get the Uciv GSpy too, and bomb with him too, then we will get about 30% more discount on espionage missions, which will make our stealing cheap, cheap, cheap. Of course, we must not tell MZ about our possible second GSpy and hope he dont get that info from Uciv.

Sommerswerd said:
Just off the top of my head... The GSpy gives about double the :espionage: points as the GSci gives :science:, but then techs cost twice as much to steal as they do to tech regularly so its a wash at first glance...

But then you get a 50% discount for the stationary spies, making the GSpy twice as good as a scientist (used for bulbing).

And then, when you Spybomb, you get an immediate imbedded discount on tech stealing because of all the newly generated espy points, just as if you had built them up the normal way. I find that it generally gives you a 30-50% discount right away against Civs who have not been pumping espy-ecomomies. So again, this makes the GSpy another 1/3rd to 1/2 better than the GSci.

Then there are the other discounts (religion, OB etc) to consider (like the fact that the Spypoints count multiple times because they count against ALL Civs for discount purposes) which are not worth including in such a rough calculation... Not to mention the fear factor... especially for us using a SPI leader.

So putting those "extras" aside, I would say a GSpy is worth 250% minimum what a GSci is worth, or more generally he is worth two and a half times what ever :espionage: points you get for him. So if a GSpy gives 3000 :espionage: I would not consider selling the GSpy for 7500, because that is a bare minimum of what he is worth, without adding all the other discounts and the intangible "fear factor" that a banked GSpy represents. GSpy is the only thing that can bring down the opponents spaceship without warning.

Notice MZ is already making threats (of running counterespionage, placing spies in every city etc)... he is scared :scared: of that GSpy:yup:, and we would be fools to sell it to him, or at least not to make him pay a premium price for his fear. If he demands a price tell him that Sommerswerd says that GSpy is the best GPerson in the game by far and is worth at least 10,500 gold. Watch what he says ;). He wont say "forget it", instead he will try to convince you to take less.

Remember that when whoever gets that GSpy from Communism uses it, they instantly will get a HUGE espy discount on everyone not just the Spybomb target. MZ knows this, and he is trying to get the GSpy for himself as a hedge against losing the Communism race. MZ is thinking about the endgame now but we can't worry about his endgame we need to worry about ours. We need that hedge for ourselves because we sure ain't winning the Communism race.
Click to expand...

Otherwise, all you say is correct. A GSpy will be very very useful to us. Two GSpies will be just great :)
 
Here is how the negotiations are going:

MZprox: in this turn i'd like to receive 500g from you. I will try to accept it only after cp has finished their turn
Изпратено в 11:47, понеделник
аз: how much money we have in stock right now?
MZprox: 900
аз: that might be a bit problematic
we have to give ot4e the 400 for the shrine
and I am not sure he got his 150 this turn
if he did, then no problem, if not, we are 150 short
I have to check that
MZprox: can't you just say that the first payment is 400, then 150 from next turn
аз: they are separate deals
there is fair chance that we did payed the 150 this turn
if so, no problem
if no, we will have to think of alternative way
Изпратено в 11:51, понеделник
MZprox: i'm already paying wealth in every city i can, i hope your money will be enough to keep me at 100% research.. becau but even 100% falls a bit short.. i just hope i can increase it a bit too during the turns
аз: we must finalize the terms on the loan too
Изпратено в 11:53, понеделник
аз: to come to agreement on the price of the GSpy in both cases - race or no race, to have clear criteria what is considered race and to have variant for if you dont get the GSpy
MZprox: can we say that it's a race ot4e gets sci method?
аз: it is OK
this is clear sign he is after Communism, otherwise he wont hurt his religious economics
MZprox: we will get sci method ourselves in 2 turns
we already put about a full turn in it, but ot4e has a full overflow
Изпратено в 11:56, понеделник
MZprox: I'm afk again, we can finalize the trade when I1m back
Изпратено в 11:57, понеделник
аз: ok, we have time still, the turn switch late that night
Изпратено в 11:58, понеделник
аз: back from lunch
Изпратено в 13:20, понеделник
MZprox: so as i show you by calculation 3k and 4k is a fair périce for our gspy, don't you agree?
Изпратено в 13:24, понеделник
аз: we were considering 2500 in case of race. maybe we can agree in the middle? 2750 in race and 3500 in case of no race. plus no interest on the money ?
Изпратено в 13:28, понеделник
MZprox: well i think we can agree on that, no need to start haggling
Изпратено в 13:29, понеделник
аз: ok then
finally, we can agree about interest in case you lose the race
MZprox: i thought the no interest stands for each cases. we will be crewed enough if we lose the race, you can take some part of the risk I think :)
if we lose the race we will repay the gold asap, if we win you continue to send the money by at least 250gpt once the gspy arrived until the price is met
Изпратено в 13:33, понеделник
MZprox: btw we must be sure that you can send us enough gold. As i said we are already building wealth, the absolute minimum we need is 1300 gold in the next 3 turns. 1400-1500 would be better
when i saw you have 900 I thought it couldn't be a problem, but if you need to give away 550 then it is a problem
Изпратено в 13:36, понеделник
аз: lets hope it wont be a problem
from next turn we can rearrange tiles, start building wealth too, etc, etc
the problem can be only for this turn
if it does not matter much if you get 500 now and 500 next turn, but instead get 350 this turn and 650 next turn for the same 1000 in 2 turns, then all will be good
Click to expand...

I think those prices are quite good. Yes, MZ will gain much too, but in FFAs most of the time you have to make deals which benefit 2 or 3 parties and this is still good for you personally, because the others are staying behind, while you move forward.
 
So, team, we have a situation to solve.

We were planning to happily attack CivFR at t210 when our NAP with them ends, but for this to happen, we must have NAPs with both Poly and CP. I think the sequence must be NAP with Poly -> NAP with CP, where once we get NAP with Poly to t250 (I asked MZ as preliminary talks about it), then we can be at least secure from 3vs1 scenario and we can use Ot4e's fear of MZ's powerful tech abilities by asking him to give us NAP because it will be stupid we to kill each-others while MZ tech ahead.

So, I think NAP to t250 with Poly is good thing to have. Does it seems so for you too guys?
 
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