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Foreign Policy: CivFr

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by talonschild, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Here is a working draft suggestion for a peace offer to CivFR. I suspect they will ask for even more than this, but we can always hope that the servile tone is enough to convince them that this will mean they can focus their resources on continued buildup instead of military. Building a settler and rebuilding that city that I suggest in the offer is a small price to pay to know that we have a window until T200 that we are secure from any advances from them.
     
  2. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    City gifting is illegal. :crazyeye: Or than that, I like it!
     
  3. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Ah, yes - good point. I will modify the draft now, and state that we will provide them with a settler, and state that we will be fine with them using the spot for a new city if they should desire that. :)

    And thank you! :)
     
  4. bistrita

    bistrita Warlord

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    just as a corection they cat have the place of nomaba but the spot 1N of dyes.
     
  5. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    We can try that, but I doubt they will accept it. We need to be prepared for the fact that they will demand the spot of the city they razed, and considering how important this peace treaty and NAP is to us, it is far better to let them have that spot rather than remain in war with them. I will modify the draft to suggest the other spot though. Do they have paper? If they do, a screenshot would be nice to have, cropped of all information so we don't give them anything else than the specific location we have in mind.
     
  6. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    Looks good to me. We might have to swallow this bitter pill now, but this border won't be this way forever. We have to deal with the RB problem, otherwise we can kiss victory good-bye.
     
  7. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    We have to include in the peace offer the rules 2c
    This means that they can't get any cities we already have. So if they try and get the cities we have, then they are asking for something illegal and thus they are not serious about peace.
     
  8. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    They will then say: "We are still at war, empty the cities, so we can take them".
     
  9. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    To which we would have to respond that we cannot do that, as it would be circumventing the rules. I don't remember Plako's exact stance on it, but in my opinion it's a dirty tactic that would lower our reputation.

    Nevertheless, I think the best approach to that right now is to avoid mentioning it altogether in our first message. If they bring it up, then we can deal with that then. For now, let's try to be as servile as possible to convince them of our peaceful intents (for now).
     
  10. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Glad to have you back in the team, Cal.

    And yes, good point about emptying cities being circumventing the rule of no-city-gifting.

    As of now, I think we must not send them anything ourselves, but leave our cause to be presented by Ot4e. We tried to be reasonable with the French, but we got only cold words and more threats or simply no answer. Somehow, ot4e believes he can make the French consider peace. I dont know if this is false and last-stand hope on his side or he has some levers to use on them, but I would give the word to him, just letting him what we are willing to consess to French for peace.

    I think a smart move would be to not specify exact tiles and numbers initially, as to the greedy one, 2 and 200 looks the same - always small. I would suggest we tell ot4e that we are willing to divide the available zulu land in half with French. And then we see if they even start to talk. Maybe the curiosity and greediness in them will speak? If they start to talk about deal, asking questions, making demands, etc, we know we have almost got that peace. The rest will be boring bargaining and complaining from what each of us costs that zulu affair and how much each of us deserves the spoils. IF they say something like: we want from the zulu cities you occupy now, we will just then tell then it is against the rules.

    Realistically, there is land for 4 good cities on green land in the clear borders of the ex-zulu lands. We give them 2 cities land, eventually ask for 1-2 resources which are left in their hands and we get peace. Not bad a deal. Ideally would have been if we keep all the zulu land, but we must try this variant too.

    As parallel/consequent move, we can ask ot4e to wore off from French his support and admit if they dont get that fair deal (remember - we offer split in half of the available spoil, where we did ALL the fighting), so if they refuse this fair deal, it must be clear they dont plan on helping ot4e in the big picture versus RB, thus breaking their promises, so he owe them no more friendship and we will ask him to start planning with us their demise. We can tell him this in advance, so he will be extra motivated to try and get peace, as otherwise he will be forced to be good ally to us and drop French, which can mean 1 more not safe border for him or even we asking him for joining us on wiping out French. I will remind him what we talk about French back in the time when he was trying to recruit us for anti-RB plot. I had told him back then that we know French will be troubles. And I will remind him that he was hesitating to agree to us declaring together war to French to get rid of them with the excuse that French will help us actually, and that we will have no time for that before we are forced to face RB. Well, there is opportunity which arises. We can tell him (and MZ) that we can try to get NAP with RB till t200 or t210 and then we 3 jump on French and partition them between us 3. CP and Poly will get their so much needed land to become bigger and have better perspectives in future. We will get rid of French (me and Bistrita believe that we can conquer French in just 40-50 turns from now, even faster if we get Poly on board - their NAP with French ends at t180 and having NAP with RB, they will be happy to attack French, and also having the help of CP - their NAP with French ends on t190). So, we will have some more land, our allies will be bigger and better prepared for war, and then we can think more easy for tackling RB.

    What you guys and gals think about this whole thing?
     
  11. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    TBH, I like the idea of just giving CivFr what they want and doing the joint invasion of RB better than NAP with RB to go after CivFr in 40-50 turns.

    In 40-50 turns RB will be too far ahead for anyone to stop them. Going after CivFr first is just giving the game to RB.

    Make the peace deal with CivFr, let them spend the next 40 turns trying to claim all the land we gave them with settlers and Workers. They build up all the lands nice with cities and improvements, cottages, farms, workshops etc... Then we come in with our Army from the RB War and take it all back from them. We get 1/3 of RB land and then maybe 1/3 of CivFr land too.

    I say we tell Ot4e that we will accept that they take the lands East of the razed Nobamba in exchange for peace. See what counteroffer they come back with and negotiate from there. Also ask Ot4e if he will drop CivFr as an ally if they refuse to make peace.
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    Another possibility I see from Ot4e's chats... Maybe CivFr acts out of pure greed... They know that we want a NAP with them and are desperate for it. Maybe they have no plans to invade us at all, and are just hoping that we cave in and give them free lands for peace.

    Yossa (and other demohackers), are they building an invasion force or just upgrading? Because this might all be just a big bluff. Maybe we dont have to give them anything, just ignore them and attack RB as planned. Maybe they don't want to fight us at all and are just hoping that if they stay at War with us we will be scared to settle those lands that they want... which we are.;)
     
  13. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    You know Sommers, I also like to not bother in small bargains and look for the greater goal and return to those pesky bargainers a bit later and deal with them at my leisure. Only problem here is I just dont believe we can break RB. It will be trench dragged on war at best. RB will be brought down, but we will gain not much. I honestly dont see any of us 3 getting land from RB. Just look at the Germans war. I have told CP and Poly to prepare army and declare war to Germans few turns after RB attack them and take all cities from behind they can. It would had been a cake walk. They could had gained land, cities and would had denied those to RB. And it would had been piece of cake, piece of bean and what not. But our friends were scared to do that. I asked them how they intend to take those same cities once RB capture and occupy them. And got no reasonable answer. Either we are dealing with cowards, or we are dealing with guys, who simply cant see the big picture. Sadly, we have no better friends :D So, my thinking starts to change to that we will just keep RB at bay. We wont march in RB lands with banners flying and fanfare music. We wont be able to really deal quick with RB. And here is where this comes in conflict with giving Civfr all they want. Because they will develop these lands in this time, where we will not gain other lands to develop.
     
  14. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    This one I can answer. They are building some army, but not much. Mainly catapults which they intend to use in defense if we move towards Chinook. Mainly they upgrade axes to maces. Their army is not capable of defeating our zulu army at the moment and this will hardly change if they dont start heavy whipping. Which they will not, as they work almost exclusively cottages and this is too harmful for them.

    So, I start to think they did what I do many times - pretend to be mad, call "prepare, because I am coming like berserk at you", while all I want is to stop my enemy from trying to advance just for few turns, so I can heal/bring reinforcements and stabilize the front. My suspicions are supported by the fact they are teching Education and are not even moving anything fron the south desert isthmus to try the soil for raids and force us to split our defense in Zulu capitol.
     
  15. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    The idea is not to have a cake walk over RB. The idea is we take 2 or 3 border cities, CP takes 2 or 3 cities and MZ can maybe take 1 if he is lucky. RB is not destroyed, but they are crippled, and we have huge Army on the border with them so they cant take their lands back. Then we can turn our attention to how to face CivFr.

    Now here is where the human psychology comes in... RB is proud. Their players are a proud bunch. I will bet 1 beer that when all 3 of us invade RB and cripple them that their best players will lose interest, seeing their careful plans disrupted. They will say "Oh well... Technically we won, but these guys have to dogpile us to beat us so I am satisfied that we are the best... I have lost all interest in this game"

    They will not quit completely, mind you, but just sulk in the corner for a while, licking their wounded pride. This will be enough for them to get themselves in disarray while we then do the same to CivFr.
     
  16. bistrita

    bistrita Warlord

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    I bet 20 beers that willnot happen au contrair they reaction will be to fight to the death.
     
  17. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Well, well, well, interesting opposing ideas of what will happen. Interesting times we have ahead for sure :)
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Should anyone comment on what to send to ot4e or I should simply go ahead? I hope to catch him on chat tomorrow if he is back from his vacation, but maybe sending mail right now will be better. We might change our tech path to the more peaceful paper-education-printing press before we push for Steel if we get NAP from French. But as I see things, even if they actually start talking, nothing guarantees we can come to agreement and will be sad to act again with the presumption they want peace, where they act only hostile and abuse our desire/wish for peace (like we dont kill their GM and they start their GA to use money for upgrades instead of negotiating, we take Nobamba in hope we will have peace with French where they attack and raze it).
     
  19. Magno_uy

    Magno_uy Warlord

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    Does we have a French speaking member?
     
  20. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Yes, we do have couple of them I think.
     

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