1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Free health care: Is it a handout, or a form of insurance?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Eukaryote, Jun 24, 2006.

?

Is public health care a handout or a form of insurance?

  1. It's a form of insurance.

    62.5%
  2. It's a handout.

    29.7%
  3. It's a radioactive monkey!

    7.8%
  1. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    44,228
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    Insurance can be a very good system, especially when you take out investor markup from the equation (meaning, if the corporation is merely trying to stay profitable, instead of maximizing profits). However, regular insurance corps are allowed to discriminate their customers - teens pay more for car insurance, etc. And so, a healthy insurance program cannot be truely fair if people aren't batched into groups.

    As well, nationalised health care off-loads risky behaviour - smoking, for example.

    However, after looking at the numbers, it seems that health care is delivered most efficiently if it's nationalised - as long as there are sane methods of discouraging abuse of the system.
     
  2. RedWolf

    RedWolf Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,113
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Poor people don't pay taxes? Really? They do in my country... less then rich people of course if you're talking income tax... More (proportionately) if you're talking sales taxes...
     
  3. Gabryel Karolin

    Gabryel Karolin Gammelgädda

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,583
    Location:
    Sweden, Europe
    I am all for nationalized healthcare, how horrible it would be if the poor were forced to live with grave illnessess or constant pain because they can not afford to go to the hospital. Or even worse, can not afford to take their children there.

    Drug-abusers and people who inflict upon themselves these conditions is a different story, and I am not sure they should be fully included in this system.

    However; Anyone who loves their country and has some bit of compassion for their fellow citizens should not mind paying a small bit of their income to those in honest need. For the good of the country, and because helping others is good, for you and for them.
     
  4. IglooDude

    IglooDude Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2003
    Messages:
    22,092
    Location:
    Igloo, New Hampshire
    The crux of my opposition to 'free' health care isn't really economic liberty, but social liberty.

    That is this: once the public is paying for your health care, they have a vested interest in the health of your body, right? High risk-factor lifestyles/activities/diets suddenly and without fanfare become the purview of taxpayers, and thus, the electorate.

    How soon, then, until smoking is banned purely from the negative health effects? And I don't mean "banned in public places", I mean "DEA breaking into your house unannounced and hauling you off to jail for for possession of a carton of cigarettes in your basement" banned. How soon after that, until fast-food joints get regulations handed to them regarding fat content of superburgers? And after that, ice cream and candy bars being regulated like ephedrine is now? And after that, required attendance at gyms?

    Yeah, most of that is a slippery-slope argument, but I don't want the barrier being pierced in the first place. There are enough battles being fought - and lost - with respect to the control someone has over their own body (assisted suicide and medical marijuana, to name the two obvious ones), I have no desire to give the social conservatives even MORE control over my personal body at the same time as I give the economic liberals even more control over my wallet.
     
  5. Neonanocyborgasm

    Neonanocyborgasm Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    4,695
    Gender:
    Male
    It's insurance.
     
  6. tomsnowman123

    tomsnowman123 Simple Liver

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,576
    Location:
    In front of my Koobox with Linspire
    That's why we need tuition free secondary schooling for all.

    To me that seems to be stretching it. I don't think things would just start being banned that are unhealthy. If so, fast food, soda, candy, and much, much more would be in trouble. I view it as increasing social freedoms, not decreasing.
     
  7. Mastreditr111

    Mastreditr111 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Outside Philadelphia, PA, USA
    igloodude is right... allowing the government further control over something, anything, that is traditionally the responsibility of private citizens is just asking for it to insinuate itself where it is not wanted... this is why i keep proposing private charities as a solution... they can in no way try to restrict us in our activities, and they are, as i have often said before, far more efficient in determining who truly has need of assistance
     
  8. IglooDude

    IglooDude Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2003
    Messages:
    22,092
    Location:
    Igloo, New Hampshire
    Explain why marijuana is banned, then. Explain why seatbelt use and (in many states) wearing motorcycle helmets are required by law. The arguments in favor of those examples is generally "it costs the public when you use marijuana or get in a crash when you weren't wearing your seatbelt/helmet".

    If the public already cares about whether I wear a seatbelt enough to have police fine me when I don't, imagine how much they'll care when they're paying my medical bills outright?
     
  9. Samson

    Samson Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,369
    Location:
    Cambridge
    I really do not think he is. We have lots of examples of states that have Free health care at the point of delivery, and I do not see that these suffer particuly badly from being nanny states.

    I REALLY do not think this is a job for charities, the nations health is just too important to leave to the vagracies of charitable donations.
     
  10. tomsnowman123

    tomsnowman123 Simple Liver

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,576
    Location:
    In front of my Koobox with Linspire
    A lot of the people who wish to legalize marijuana tend to have more liberal views on health care, i.e., the green party. It's a more liberal view, and liberals tend to stand for social freedoms. Marijuana is banned in the US because the Republican party party is in control, and not all liberals support it yet. Hopefully one day, it will be legal.
     
  11. tomsnowman123

    tomsnowman123 Simple Liver

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,576
    Location:
    In front of my Koobox with Linspire
    Exactly, since when have all charities been perfect, un-corruptable orginizations? The government could implement health care better, and bring freedom to those who don't have it. Health care is a human right, imo.
     
  12. Mastreditr111

    Mastreditr111 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Outside Philadelphia, PA, USA
    hopefully????????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!! how is drug use a goal to become unbanned!?!?!? frankly i think that rather than trying to screw all the little latin american countries that produce the drugs by trying to get them to stop, we should make drug USE of any kind (except alcohol, too ingrained in culture) punishable by a manditory 5-7 year minimum prison sentence and a further 10 years of probation

    as is we only arrest dealers and smugglers... that is stupid
     
  13. tomsnowman123

    tomsnowman123 Simple Liver

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,576
    Location:
    In front of my Koobox with Linspire
    Marijuana has numerous medicinal purposes, and right now it can't be used in this way. Legalizing it might also reduce gang violence, although that is debatable. My main reson for legalizing it is the medical one, and the fact that it gives people more choice.
     
  14. Samson

    Samson Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,369
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Rather OT here, if you really want to discus it start a new thread or find one of the old ones and bump it (with a helpfull comment of course). Basicly the point is that a vast majority of the problems assosiated with drugs are caused by the prohibition not the drug itself.
     
  15. Mastreditr111

    Mastreditr111 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Outside Philadelphia, PA, USA
    ok no more threadjacking... on this topic, at least
     
  16. Paradigne

    Paradigne Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,552
    Location:
    Texas
    The US DOES have free health care. Especially for illegal immigrants who do not have to pay a dime (Harris county, TX spent $97 miilion last year in nonrecoverable expendatures on illegals - That's just ONE county).

    Hospitals are not allowed to refuse treatment to ANYONE for life threatening injuries/illnesses, whether they can afford to pay or not. They CAN put a lien on your property though if you happen to own a home.

    As far as all the WWJD? I firmly believe in teaching a man to fish as opposed to giving him one...
     
  17. Mastreditr111

    Mastreditr111 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Outside Philadelphia, PA, USA
    THANK YOU!!!!! That's just the analogy i needed... why give people money and healthcare when we can teach them through our education system so they'll be able to get this for themselves.
     
  18. tomsnowman123

    tomsnowman123 Simple Liver

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,576
    Location:
    In front of my Koobox with Linspire
    The US is the only industrialized nation in the world without a national health care system. There is so much we could do with one.

    Our educational system right now is flawed. Again, I believe health care to be a human right, something everyone should have, no matter what.
     
  19. GinandTonic

    GinandTonic Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,853
    I find the concept of assigning healthcare by criteria other than need inexplicable, even offensive. Who would live and die decided by their bank accounts? Madness and folly.
     
  20. Mastreditr111

    Mastreditr111 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    Outside Philadelphia, PA, USA
    There is NO undisabled person in this country who doesn't have a chance to ascend to at least middle-class, if they work hard for it. Welfare should, thus, logically be restricted to people with physical or mental disabilities that prevent them from working and earning a living.
     

Share This Page