From A to Z: #3 Augustus

[Izuul]

Are those Immortal numbers? IIRC Myst is 80, Ag is 97, BW is close to 200, etc.

Modifier for Immortal is 1.625x base beaker cost.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Are those Immortal numbers? IIRC Myst is 80, Ag is 97, BW is close to 200, etc.

Modifier for Immortal is 1.625x base beaker cost.

Those are base costs. Hmm. That's what I get for using the references here. T60 oracle is much harder with a 1.625 cost. What's the pre-req discount? We'd have to look more closely. With that in mind we might have to do stuff like work the lake tile a bit to shave turns, much harder.

 

[Pangaea]

20% I believe.

 

[Patchface]

I'm not just trying to confuse things here but... if your crunch is getting all the tech in time then don't you want a couple early cottages up?

BW-TW-Pott

then everything else?

 

[Izuul]

We're really just debating things that could be completely irrelevant after 10 turns of exploration. What else is new though

But continuing on... 20% bonus to tech rate for each pre-req and i think it's 5% per civ that you have contact with that has the tech already.

 

[Izuul]

Oops, wrong thread.

 

[Gwaja]

Let's play a bit of turns here to see how the land looks like!

Spoiler :

Turn 0/4000 BC: I settled in place, and the immediate surroundings near the capital looked somewhat like this:

Spoiler :

Riverside grassland hills to the south, and a little further south there is a floodplain tile visible. That direction looks promising!

First build: worker! First tech: Agriculture!

Turn 2/ 3920 BC: That floodplain tile got me curious to explore towards that direction, and it seems that location is even better than I thought!

Spoiler :

2 floodplain tiles and a riverside gold mine... that place is looking like my commerce city is gonna go there. Maybe as a 2nd city, or maybe a 3rd one, but definitely not past that. 2nd city may have to be settled to grab a more strategic resource, even if it means its commerce or food may not be all that great.... but more exploration is needed!

Turn 6/3760 BC: Further south is looking more like a smaller peninsula than a larger landmass. Considering that I haven't met anyone coming from that direction, I figure it is most likely a dead end exploring that area with deserts mixed in, so I decide to explore towards the west instead.

Spoiler :

Turn 7/3720 BC: We meet our first AI in the game, confirming that we are NOT alone! ^_^

Spoiler :

Well, hello Lizzy! ^_^ Have I ever told you that she is the most awesome leader of all time in history? Okay... I am biased, but seriously though... Lizzy as an AI isn't too bad to deal with. Since she is the first contact, I assume she is gonna be my nearest neighbor, which means... a soft target for my Praetorians! However, she did come from the north beyond the jungle, so that might mean that getting to her may not be as easy as we would hope.

Turn 8/3680 BC: Buddhism is founded in the far away land.

Turn 9/3640 BC: Agriculture is finished! While deciding what to research for the next tech, my scouting warrior reveals what might make Fippy sing in high joy! ^_^

Spoiler :

Turn 11/3560 BC: 2 turns into researching Bronze Working... since I figured I wanted to see where copper is sooner than later, and I also figured early chopping may be in order. Anyways, at this point, the exploration of the map nearby reveals this much information as a whole:

Spoiler :

I like exploring in circles around my capital first, to find the nearest and the most suitable 2nd city site, and so far, what's looking ahead looks promising. And now that the stone has been revealed, I am sure Fippy would be very happy! ^_^

Anyways, I am eyeing either the red or the blue square I marked here...

The blue square looks like a no brainer.... the red square...? You might say that it lacks food and commerce there, but this place can still work 4 tiles (plains cow, the stone, the grassland 1E of the cow that can be farmed, forested grassland hill mine 1SE of the cow) without food problems, and with a plains hill city tile, the hammer production would be quite good.

Bear in mind that the water tiles 2N of the western corn is a fresh water lake. Settling out towards that way with the western corn may be too far away for a 2nd city at this point, but having that stone city can help accelerate expansion that way.

Of course, all this can change if copper or horse pops nearby, but assuming that they are not nearby a reasonably close site for a 2nd city, I think one of these 2 places make the most sense for me.

 

[Patchface]

Looks like a plan to me. I'd settle the red square first, grow to size 2 then just spit workers and settlers from it.

 

[Izuul]

I kind of like gold city first to get commerce. Red is a very strong city at size 2 IF you have AH and Masonry, and the gold mine will help immensely with getting early techs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not just trying to confuse things here but... if your crunch is getting all the tech in time then don't you want a couple early cottages up?

BW-TW-Pott

then everything else?

You would cottage decent-chance-resource non-riverside flat green tiles and work them? I'd rather work the lake lol. Also, if gunning oracle and going BW first (well really you'd want at least AG first) you'd probably prefer going straight to PH to get started on oracle sooner, then tech to pottery.

 

[nocho]

Hi there! How come your blue square is a no brainer? You should look for sea food first on that east coast imo, otherwise 1 off the west coast looks a bit odd to me. Even without seafood I'd prefer 1E (or 1SE) of gold more than 1W of it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Checking east coast to make sure blue doesn't kill seafood is useful. Otherwise blue is indeed a priority since is otherwise lacking here.

Mids are a lot more appealing with stone. Oracle MC + Mids would be downright unfair . PS whips and chops with inexpensive forge totaling 50% bonus on everything would allow a flood of units, and there are at least two AI here.

 

[Fippy]

Stone city, guard that
Good settler prod with Cows and stone too.

Switch to AH first!

 

[Strickl3r]

Spoiler :

SIP, no oracle

City spots are rather mediocre.

I went for Mids, Parthenon, MoM, TGL and libbed MT. I got GPs for 3 golden ages+ taj mahal, builded an academy, bulbed philo + double bulbed Education + i got 2 great merchants for upgrading Horse Archers. Founded 6 citys, 2 of them are total crap with just riverside farms and calender ressources.

Builded some kind of small cottage spot(gold, cow, 2 Flood Plains) and produced zillions of fail gold, mainly with chicken pizza and this religious gold wonder.

Attack date was very late, after 1000 AD, but that was not a problem, nobody was teching away and Aztech was attacking guys furiously to keep them small without getting citys or cap anyone.

Upgraded like 30 guys and insta capped Lizzy. ~1100 AD now and the game is practically won, since all guys are far away from rifling and will fall after 2-3 citys taken i'm sure.

 

[Seraiel]

I agree it's #1 (edit: most of the time), but the question is more will my neighbour build it for me right?

This is the question.

Self-building the Mids is simply very expensive while letting a stupid neighbouring AI build them for onesself is cheap and the benefit one gets is exactly the same.

Building any Wonders at all when playing with Praets is already very questionable, but one can argue about the Oracle because 750 at the cost of 300 + 150 is a decent conversion rate, also, Meditation / Polytheism can usually be traded aswell as Priesthood so gives diplomatic bonuses or leaders the AIs on peaceful tech-paths like CoL or Philosophy and 150 are only 100 with being IND.

That's why Oracle is simply always a good decision, assuming that it's safe.

In this case, the risk lies at teching 3 small techs that cost 300 at 1 turn where the Oracle is half built, so worst case is 300 (of which some could maybe be gained back by trade) + maybe 2 Forrests.

That's reasonable.

Mids = half the + 500 = all Forrests in range = not reasonable when playing on a standard sized map, where chances are very good that a neighbour could build them for free.

Maybe if we find Stone near and find out that half of the Civs sits on another continent, then one could think about it, but it's also not right to say that Agustus wouldn't open up any economical possibilities, as Hammer- / Failgold economy is always very strong and Traderoute + Conquest economy should also not be forgotten.

[EDIT]

I see, we found Stone... I'd settle the Gold-spot first because the city has a free Traderoute with the Capital via the river, checking for Seafood in advance though is necessary as the land in the west of that city doesn't look too awesome.

Settling the Cows + Stone + research AH now will sacrifice your Oracle plans mostly. This means it'd leave you backwards and that you'd have to do some constant catching up over the round.

I think it's best to try to bring out 1 Settler for the Gold as that city increases the research of the overall empire, Oracle MC (trade for Alpha and everything else) and then settle the Stone soon afterwards and chop out the Mids there. You'd be well advised if you'd steal a Worker from Lizzy, unless she's your only tradepartner. If she is, you'd still get away with 1 Worker and cautious, if she isn't, rob her of every Worker she has and then conquer her with Praets afterwards. 3-5 Praets can conquer a complete empire when it's defended with Archers and Lizzy is very weak anyhow with her low probability to build units.

Of course, not stealing, gifting the Stone to Lizzy and then visiting her with some Praets once she built the Mids is also very elegant and probably gets you 1-2 additional cities at a slight risk that she might not build them / build them late.

 

[chessplaya]

Blue square with (Ag->)BW->TW->AH is how would I might play if I were going for Oracle. The point is to get the second city up ASAP and have it grow slowly on gold+floodplain farms. Then at size 5 working 2 grass mines the city contributes 10 food+hammers toward a settler/worker so it can eventually be useful for something other than having a gold tile. Keep in mind that blue square cannot be a long-term commerce city with so little food! Once the capital builds a second worker it can improve the pigs to grow fast before it hopefully whips another settler (for Cow+Stone probably) into the Oracle. I'm not sure whether this can all happen in time or not. Red Square with AH next and at some point Masonry is much better if I wanted to REX hard and skip the Oracle, and maybe build Mids instead.

 

[Packers5280]

Blue square should be first imo. It may be a while before you get masonry. Red city I would consider 1W, although that would not have any food in the 1st ring. With the border pop it would be a much stronger city. I'd consider 1W of the stone as well to get the corn inside the 1st ring.

You could go the praet route and gift the stone to lizzy. Hopefully that would encourage her to go for the mids or other early stone wonders, as seraiel mentioned. Let the AI build the wonders for you, then take what is rightfully yours.

 

[Gwaja]

Some differences of opinions here, but it would seem that most people are leaning towards settling the gold site and Oracling Metal Casting. I am gonna have to think about this for a bit...

Just a quick comment on these:

Hi there! How come your blue square is a no brainer? You should look for sea food first on that east coast imo, otherwise 1 off the west coast looks a bit odd to me. Even without seafood I'd prefer 1E (or 1SE) of gold more than 1W of it.

Assuming there is no seafood (which I think there is none), I like where I placed the blue square. That city doesn't necessarily have to be coastal in my opinion, and I like the fact that it grabs more riverside tiles plus incense. If there is no seafood, the food output here isn't gonna be all that great anyway. And I prefer settling on plains tile and leaving a riverside grassland tile to be worked, rather than the other way around. But then again, of course, I can always change my mind. ^_^

Mids are a lot more appealing with stone. Oracle MC + Mids would be downright unfair . PS whips and chops with inexpensive forge totaling 50% bonus on everything would allow a flood of units, and there are at least two AI here.

HA! I was thinking just the same actually. Basically we will be chewing out Praetorians at 30 hammers a pop! But the chances of Oracling Metal Casting and building the Pyramids all at the same time is probably next to slim. I can try of course.... just to test my luck! ^_^

 

[Fippy]

Why play with luck if you can do a solid opening that would never let you down
Honestly the Oracle..i know you like watching @AZ, he would never go for that here.
Only for good reasons, and you have none of the good reasons here (no other options, mysticism start, good commerce start, not many other techs needed and so on).
Oracle addicts usually advertise like there would be no negatives, like needing 3 rather unimportant techs early, skipping good techs instead (those pigs will be very sad..), and like it's the only way of becoming so super powerful that you should actually not play on cos you already won :b

 

[Thrar]

I'd say scratch Oracle.
Switch research to AH - there's no point in BW at this time yet. AH will let you improve your pigs. Going BW before AH is simply a waste of food and worker turns I think.

You can't rely on the second city to help you tech towards Oracle. If I see this correctly, the cities do not autoconnect since the capital isn't riverside. The second city will cost you maintenance. By the time you have it settled and the gold mined (even if you work the gold before growing to size 2, which may be questionable), it'll be T40 at least.

For blocking purposes, I'd put my second city E of corn instead. To me, this is a much better site than the stoned cows, and it's coastal to boot. You can still get the cow later.
I would focus on getting this second city settled as soon as possible, probably settler after the initial worker and a warrior. 3rd city should also be very early, ideally down at the gold, although I would consider near the cows if there's AIs settling nearby.
These two sites will do much more for you than a risky Oracle, wasting 3 techs just to get there and ending up with very little commerce.

Tech-wise, I'd probably do AH->TW->Pottery. I don't quite understand why you need BW so early. A few fogbusting warriors should keep you safe enough until you have your 3 cities settled. After those maybe Masonry, or BW if barb pressure is really high.
I see Pyramids as a nice-to-have but not must-have here, something to think about once stone is hooked up and there's no immediate need for settlers or other expansion investments.