From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

[red_elk]

How so?
Considering that Beck did not send this to the French but it was an internal message to other members of Polish government?

The reason why Beck didn't want to express any sign of alliance with the Germany was that he didn't want to harm Polish-French relations.
In case of war against USSR his message would become irrelevant.

First of all that you mix up Czechoslovakia into Polish-Soviet matters.
The fact that something wrong happened in Polish-Czechoslovakian relations cannot be an excuse for Soviet actions.
And BTW - Czechoslovakia was not the "innocent" one in the Polish-Czechoslovakian relations.
Both states contributed to considerable worsening of relations between themselves yet in 1920s.
When Poland was fighting against the Soviets in the war of 1919 - 1920, Czechoslovakia invaded Poland and took Zaolzie (Teschen) by force.
In 1938 Poland only regained it - also taking advantage of a very unpleasant for Czechoslovakia situation.

Again, what's wrong with my statement that the Poles in 1938 did virtually the same what they are blaming the Soviets for?
Poland was far from being innocent in 1920-s either.

Everyone knows that Soviet federation was a fiction and everything was centrally ruled from Moscow by the Communist Party...

Unlike Poland before WW2, which was the real federation of independent states?

Now you prove that you also don't know much about the reasons of the violence in Volhynia in 1943 - 1944...
BTW - the article says about "male population", not about officers.

I'm talking about attitude of West Ukrainians towards Polish people. Thousands of Poles were massacred by the locals in 1943 - and you call my message about Polish officers being afraid of locals "Soviet propaganda". Indeed, they have probably nothing to worry about since they were officers, not just "male population" after all.

Did I even claim so? Or Beshanov?

You replied to my message about Belarussian and Ukrainian majority on these territories. If you are agree that they were majority, I don't see a point in your message.

First of all - I am not sure if you can declare English wikipedia as a "Polish source" or even "source"...

I was talking about your Polish sources, not English wikipedia. Which, BTW, can be edited by anyone including Polish nationalists.

Belarusians lived only in Minsk ???

No, Belorussians lived not only in Minsk. They were killed, massacred and bombed by Nazis in other places too. From the very first days of aggression.

BTW - you claimed that Belarusians were grateful for being "liberated by Soviets from the Polish rule" in 1939.

Most of them, yes. Many of them fought in Soviet army and there were anti-Polish uprisings in 1939 too.

 

[Domen]

The reason why Beck didn't want to express any sign of alliance with the Germany was that he didn't want to harm Polish-French relations.

But Beck told OTHER MEMBERS OF POLISH GOVERNMENT that Poland WOULD NEVER SUPPORT GERMANY.

What the hell do French-Polish relations have to do with INTERNAL discussion between members of Polish government ???

Again, what's wrong with my statement that the Poles in 1938 did virtually the same what they are blaming the Soviets for?

No - Poland gave Czechoslovakia an ULTIMATUM.

And Czechoslovakia ACCEPTED the Polish ultimatum because it did not have any other choice at that time.

As the result - Polish forces occupied Teschen WITHOUT A SINGLE SHOT.

And Soviets did not send any ultimatum to Poland in 1939 - they immediately invaded, without any warning - by surprise!

As the result - there was bloodshed and combats and also war crimes during the Soviet Invasion of Poland.

They were killed, massacred and bombed by Nazis in other places too. From the very first days of aggression.

Ok. If you say so then I guess you are right. But all Belarusians?

Many of them fought in Soviet army and there were anti-Polish uprisings in 1939 too.

There was an anti-Polish uprising of Ukrainian nationalists (those who supported Germany) in the area around Stanislawow.

I didn't hear anything about any Belarusian uprising apart from several minor actions by some ardent communists (so called "Red Militia").

You replied to my message about Belarussian and Ukrainian majority on these territories. If you are agree that they were majority, I don't see a point in your message.

I agree that they were majority.

My point was that according to Soviet sources they were much bigger majority than according to Polish sources. And according to Polish census of 1931 Poles were either direct (over 50%) or indirect (less than 50% but more % than of any other group) majority in these voivodeships:

As you can see according to Polish census Poles were majorities in these of eastern voivodeships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnopol_Voivodeship = 49% mother tongue Polish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lwów_Voivodeship = 58% mother tongue Polish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilno_Voivodeship_(1926–1939) = 60% mother tongue Polish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowogródek_Voivodeship_(1919–1939) = 53% mother tongue Polish

So the cities of Vilnius (Wilno) and Ternopil (Tarnopol) had Polish majority according to Polish census, for example.

===================================================

Here is more exact data:

I'm talking about attitude of West Ukrainians towards Polish people. Thousands of Poles were massacred by the locals in 1943

Those Poles who were massacred - were also locals!

They were not from other parts of Poland but also from Volhynia.

Those people were neighbours...

And actually Poles also killed Ukrainians at that time in that area. Hostilities were from both sides.

But in 1939 situation was much different - there was not yet so much hatred in Volhynia!

Which, BTW, can be edited by anyone including Polish nationalists.

Or ardent "Soviet" neo-communists...

Unlike Poland before WW2, which was the real federation of independent states?

Of course it wasn't.

Pilsudsky's plan of creating a federation completely failed after the Polish-Soviet war.

I don't deny this fact. I wrote about this.

Ukraine and Belarus were partitioned between Poland and Russia in 1921 at Riga...

and you call my message about Polish officers being afraid of locals "Soviet propaganda".

There could be some officers who were afraid of the locals and possible hostile actions which could be carried out by some of them.

What I doubt is that he / they were afraid of the locals more than of the Soviets.

Because you said that they asked the Soviets to provide more soldiers to guard them and "protect from the locals".... I don't think a typical Polish officer (with dozens or hundreds of armed soldiers under his command) was afraid more of some Ukrainian peasants than of Soviet captivity & Red Army soldiers...

Especially considering what later happened in the Katyn Forest...

Poland was far from being innocent in 1920-s either.

What Poland did wrongly in 1920s when it comes to Polish-Czechoslovakian relations?

 

[red_elk]

But Beck told OTHER MEMBERS OF POLISH GOVERNMENT that Poland WOULD NEVER SUPPORT GERMANY.
What the hell do French-Polish relations have to do with INTERNAL discussion between members of Polish government ???

Why French-Polish relations cannot be the subject of internal discussion betwen members of Polish government?

No - Poland gave Czechoslovakia an ULTIMATUM.
And Czechoslovakia ACCEPTED the Polish ultimatum because it did not have any other choice at that time.
As the result - Polish forces occupied Teschen WITHOUT A SINGLE SHOT.
And Soviets did not send any ultimatum to Poland in 1939 - they immediately invaded, without any warning - by surprise!
As the result - there was bloodshed and combats and also war crimes during the Soviet Invasion of Poland.

Hardly without a single shot and certainly not without war crimes. Thousands of Czech refugees fled from that region. The difference is not principal, Poland didn't declare war to the USSR too.

There was an anti-Polish uprising of Ukrainian nationalists (those who supported Germany) in the area around Stanislawow.
I didn't hear anything about any Belarusian uprising apart from several minor actions by some ardent communists (so called "Red Militia").

That's what I'm talking about, most of Belorussians and Ukrainians were happy to reunite with their compatriots in Soviet Belorussia and Ukraine. Even communist anti-Polish uprisings happened in some regions. Exception is probably Volyn and Halicia (so-called "Banderland") where locals were neither welcome to Polish nor Soviet rule.

I agree that they were majority.
My point was that according to Soviet sources they were much bigger majority than according to Polish sources. And according to Polish census of 1931 Poles were either direct (over 50%) or indirect (less than 50% but more % than of any other group) majority in these voivodeships:

Is that what you were trying to explain me by these walls of text and pictures?
Ok, they were majority, but according to Polish census they were less majority than by Soviet census.
But both of them probably wrong.
OMFG...

Those Poles who were massacred - were also locals!
They were not from other parts of Poland but also from Volhynia.
Those people were neighbours...

And? Poles from the other regions were safe there, because Ukrainians massacred only locals?

There could be some officers who were afraid of the locals and possible hostile actions which could be carried out by some of them.
What I doubt is that he / they were afraid of the locals more than of the Soviets.
Because you said that they asked the Soviets to provide more soldiers to guard them and "protect from the locals".... I don't think a typical Polish officer (with dozens or hundreds of armed soldiers under his command) was afraid more of some Ukrainian peasants than of Soviet captivity & Red Army soldiers...

You are mistaken. Ukrainian peasant in Soviet uniform was far less dangerous for captured Polish officer than the same Ukrainian peasant being armed insurgent. No matter how he hated prisoner, he had to obey orders.

What Poland did wrongly in 1920s when it comes to Polish-Czechoslovakian relations?

I said Poland was far from being innocent in Polish-Soviet relations, in 1920-s. We already discussed it.

 

[Domen]

I said Poland was far from being innocent in Polish-Soviet relations, in 1920-s. We already discussed it.

What the f*ck have Polish-Soviet relations to do with Polish-Czechoslovakian relations? ^^

Why French-Polish relations cannot be the subject of internal discussion betwen members of Polish government?

And why should members of the Polish government lie to each other regarding Poland's official policy towards Nazi Germany?

And? Poles from the other regions were safe there, because Ukrainians massacred only locals?

Why should there be any large numbers of Poles from other regions?

most of Belorussians and Ukrainians were happy to reunite with their compatriots in Soviet Belorussia and Ukraine.

So if Poland invaded Eastern Belarus and Eastern Ukraine - locals there would be happy to reunite with their compatriots in Polish Belarus / Ukraine?

Even communist anti-Polish uprisings happened in some regions.

You are speaking about September of 1939 or in general about the entire inter-war period?

If about 1939 then there was definitely no any real communist uprising against Poland in September of 1939.

Only some minor riots of "Red Militia" (i.e. pro-Communist saboteurs) in several towns (for example in Skidel near Grodno).

And even that uprising of Ukrainian nationalists that I mentioned previously was defeated by Polish forces after a few days.

No matter how he hated prisoner, he had to obey orders.

That's the point.

Because - you see - the Red Army in Poland in 1939 commited many, many war crimes against Polish POWs...

Including especially mass executions of captured officers...

And you will find info about these crimes not just in Polish sources - also in internal documents of the Red Army.

Just to mention that even several Polish generals (mostly retired ones) were murdered by Red Army in 1939 - including this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Olszyna-Wilczyński

Ukrainian peasant in Soviet uniform was far less dangerous for captured Polish officer than the same Ukrainian peasant being armed insurgent.

I guess that Ukrainian insurgent was less trained, less organized and had worse leadership (if any) than Soviet soldier.

And regarding treatment of POWs, especially captured officers - I already explained this above.

But both of them probably wrong.

I guess Beshanov clearly explained:

The same man could claim he was Polish in August of 1939 and in November of 1939 he could claim he was Belarusian...

After all there is no "genetics" involved in population censuses - they just ask you what is your nationality...

Exception is probably Volyn and Halicia (so-called "Banderland") where locals were neither welcome to Polish nor Soviet rule.

But IIRC Stepan Bandera was not very famous before WW2.

He only gained his fame and popularity during WW2.

And maybe that's why in 1939 Ukrainians were not murdering Poles, while in 1943 were.

Because mainly Ukrainian nationalists (UPA) - not communists - were responsible for Volhynian Genocide, AFAIK.

Hardly without a single shot and certainly not without war crimes.

This is boring.

There was no resistance against Polish forces in Teschen. The Polish take-over of this land was agreed by both countries before.

And I didn't hear about any war crimes. Especially that the area captured by Poland in 1938 was ethnically Polish.

The difference is not principal, Poland didn't declare war to the USSR too.

But Polish ambassadors informed European governments that Polish border defense units are resisting the Red Army.

Plus I already explained above in this thread - as well as in the links below - why Poland did not declare war:

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=32575

http://www.ww2f.com/prelude-war-poland-1939/46961-polish-campaign-question.html

Main factor was pressure from French and English ambassadors, who didn't want Poland to formally declare war.

Anyway - international law says that aggression means war. Formal declaration is not necessary.

In case of Poland and Teschen there was no aggression since Czechoslovakia accepted Polish ultimatum and gave this area to Poland.

Thousands of Czech refugees fled from that region.

Sources ???

 

[red_elk]

What the f*ck have Polish-Soviet relations to do with Polish-Czechoslovakian relations? ^^

Nothing except it is a good illustration of Polish double standards. It's ok when Poland participate in partition of Czechoslovakia, but it's bad when USSR participate in partition of Poland.

And why should members of the Polish government lie to each other regarding Poland's official policy towards Nazi Germany?

They didn't lie. Polish policy could (and most likely would) change in case if USSR was in war with Poland and Germany together.

Why should there be any large numbers of Poles from other regions?
...
I guess that Ukrainian insurgent was less trained, less organized and had worse leadership (if any) than Soviet soldier.

Look.
Polish officers.
Had reasons to be afraid of Ukrainian nationalists.
Ukrainians massacred thousands of Poles in 1943.
Many of them hated Poles in 1939 too.
Officers had reasons to ask Red Army commanders to guard them better.

So if Poland invaded Eastern Belarus and Eastern Ukraine - locals there would be happy to reunite with their compatriots in Polish Belarus / Ukraine?

Don't think so. Easter Belorussia is quite pro-Russian, and people living in Eastern Ukraine can hardly be differentiated from Russians.

Because - you see - the Red Army in Poland in 1939 commited many, many war crimes against Polish POWs...

Like Polish army committed many, many war crimes against civilians and Red Army POWs in 1920 and later.

 

[Domen]

Like Polish army committed many, many war crimes against civilians and Red Army POWs in 1920 and later.

The Polish army had not much opportunity to commit crimes against Soviet civilians in 1920 since war was fought mainly on Polish soil.

Regarding crimes against POWs - most of co called "crimes" were epidemic diseases. And it is interesting that mortality rate of Polish POWs in Soviet captivity in 1920 - 1922 was even bigger than mortality rate of Soviet POWs in Polish captivity... Read this:

POWs in the Soviet-Polish War 1919-20:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56982&hilit=Polish+POWs

And the Red Army obviously was also very famous in Poland from its crimes during the war of 1919 - 1921...

Especially Semyon Budyonny and his Cavalry Army were "leaders" when it comes to number and brutality level of war crimes...

Look.
Polish officers.
Had reasons to be afraid of Ukrainian nationalists.
Ukrainians massacred thousands of Poles in 1943.
Many of them hated Poles in 1939 too.
Officers had reasons to ask Red Army commanders to guard them better.

This is nonsense.

You claim Ukrainian nationalists were attacking Red Army convoys transporting Polish POWs? ^^

Complete ridiculousness.

Don't think so. Easter Belorussia is quite pro-Russian

Yeaaaaa, especially recently when they suffer under rules of that idiot Lukashenko, who IS pro-Russian...

I am waiting for democracy in Belarus - those people finally have right for decent live and for freedom.

I actually know one Belarusian guy so you will not convince me that Belarusians are pro-Russian... Sorry - not for me this agitprop.

It's ok when Poland participate in partition of Czechoslovakia,

Who says so?

I wrote that Polish-Czechoslovakian relations have NOTHING to do with Polish-Russian relations.

I DID NOT say anything about Polish policy towards Czechoslovakia being OK or not OK.

The problem is that you try to justify USSR's actions against Poland by quoting some episodes from Polish-Czech relations.

So I just asked - what the hell Polish-Czech relations have to do with Polish-Soviet relations?

and people living in Eastern Ukraine can hardly be differentiated from Russians.

They wear similar hats?

Nothing except it is a good illustration of Polish double standards.

Poles = double-tongued, violent, horrid, Catholic, bloodthirsty of German, Jewish, Czech & Russian blood anti-Semito-Russo-Germano-Czecho Vampires.

Didn't you know about that?

And the worst of all these features is being Catholic of course.

Besides - there is no such thing like "double standards". There are only "Polish double standards".

"Double standards" - without "Polish" - is not yet the same and has a completely neutral meaning.

Oh and I almost forgot that Poles are to blamed for everything. They invaded everyone.

Germany was doomed in WW2 since Polish cavalry invaded Berlin plundering everything. Fortunately good uncle Adolf reacted fast enough.

And on 16 September mighty armies of those stupid Poles invaded Russia! So good uncle Stalin was also forced to react.

Oh - and one more thing:

It is of course Polish fault that every single thread on every single forum which has both Polish and Russian members, turns into a complete Off-Topic flame war. Russian members do not contribute at all and do not resurrect discussions about Polish responsibility for WW2 like Cheezy_the_Wiz did....

 

[red_elk]

The Polish army had not much opportunity to commit crimes against Soviet civilians in 1920 since war was fought mainly on Polish soil.
Regarding crimes against POWs - most of co called "crimes" were epidemic diseases.

There are different estimations, from 20000 to 80000 of Soviet POWs who died in Polish camps after 1920.
Poland doesn't have any moral highground here, discussing war crimes.

You claim Ukrainian nationalists were attacking Red Army convoys transporting Polish POWs? ^^

No, I claim that many Belarussians and Ukrainians in 1939 hated Polish officers and even were willing to kill them.
Massacres of Poles in 1943 confirm that.

Yeaaaaaa, especially recently when they suffer under rules of that idiot Lukashenko, who IS pro-Russian...
I am waiting for democracy in Belarus - those people finally have right for decent live and for freedom.
I actually know one Belarusian guy so you will not convince me that Belarusians are pro-Russian... Sorry - not for me this agitprop.

Great logic.
You can speak to Cheezy the Wiz and be persuaded that all Americans are communists.

So I just asked - what the hell Polish-Czech relations have to do with Polish-Soviet relations?

I already answered - nothing, except both Poland and Czechoslovakia were partitioned, and Poles blame Soviets for the same what they did to Czechs.

They wear similar hats?

Just read about history of Eastern Ukrainian regions and how they become part of modern Ukraine.
They speak almost the same language.
They are very close culturally.
They have similar political preferences.
Yes, and they wear similar hats.

 

[Domen]

You can speak to Cheezy the Wiz and be persuaded that all Americans are communists.

So he isn't Russian? I suspected him for not even being Russian.

Those who experienced communism rarely support it. Only Americans and such - who don't know what it is - pretend to be communists.

Situation with Neo-Nazism is similar. Ironically - modern Russia has more Neo-Nazists than any other country.

Guess it is more probable to find a Neo-Nazi in Russia and ardent communist in Western Germany than inversely...

There are different estimations, from 20000 to 80000 of Soviet POWs who died in Polish camps after 1920.

Actually 16,000 - 20,000. And I wonder why only "estimations", if there are no obstacles to organize exhumation and simply count.

The number of Polish POWs dead in Soviet captivity in 1920s is given as 20,000 - and in terms of percentage it is much higher.

Poland doesn't have any moral highground here, discussing war crimes.

Of course it has, as there are no proofs that there were any war crimes on Soviet POWs in 1920s, as I already explained here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&p=1589942

Just simply read that thread - OK please? These are just 2 pages. I will not copy & paste my posts from that forum here...

Massacres of Poles in 1943 confirm that.

Massacres of Poles in 1943 were caused by things which happened between 1939 and 1943 and growth of nationalism during this period.

 

[red_elk]

Those who experienced communism rarely support it.

Millions of Russians for example (more than 20%)
Picture from May Day in Moscow, 2011:

Spoiler :

And FYI, I'm not a communist.

Actually 16,000 - 20,000. And I wonder why only "estimations", if there are no obstacles to organize exhumation and simply count.

Actually 20.000-80.000
For example, Ratkovsky and Khodyakov estimation is 60.000
Meltyukhov - 80.000
It's hard to estimate exact number, quite possibly there were far more Soviet victims of Polish war crimes than vice versa.
I know, the Poles are professional victims, but that's not the case where Poland is any more innocent than USSR.
All such discussions about war crimes, including Katyn, must be on mutual basis. If Poles are going to pretend that they were mostly victims and did not commit a lots of war crimes themselves, they will discuss it between themselves only. No hope for reconciliation.

Just simply read that thread - OK please? These are just 2 pages. I will not copy & paste my posts from that forum here...

I already read it. There are people who disagree with you in that thread, didn't you notice?

Massacres of Poles in 1943 were caused by things which happened between 1939 and 1943 and growth of nationalism during this period.

There were always substantial amount of nationalists in those regions during XX century. In 1943 they simply got ability to massacre unwanted neighbors such as Poles and Jews. There were enough anti-Polish sentiments in 1939 too.

 

[KaiserElectric]

Millions of Russians for example (more than 20%)
Picture from May Day in Moscow, 2011:

Spoiler :

And FYI, I'm not a communist.

I believe you, but note that Russia is no longer a communist nation. I'd daresay they would have different views of communism than, let's say, a victim of the Holodomor.

 

[red_elk]

I believe you, but note that Russia is no longer a communist nation. I'd daresay they would have different views of communism than, let's say, a victim of the Holodomor.

Not sure I understood what you wanted to say.
Yes, there are and always were people with different political views in Russia.
I can assure you, most of communists are aware of crimes of Soviet leadership and CPSU - they simply consider that positive effects of communists for the country far outweighs negative ones. And I can understand why they think so, despite I know about very serious flaws of late USSR and remember some of them. I simply saw what was happening in the country since 1985 - basically we had blown up our house, while we just needed to fix the roof.

 

[Domen]

All such discussions about war crimes, including Katyn, must be on mutual basis.

Katyn took several exhumations, 60 years and tons of documents to prove. And almost exact number of victims + surnames are known.

This alleged crime is based on estimation like "there were maybe between 5 and 55555555 dead and we don't really know how they died".

Assuming that Russia sues Poland for this before some international court, Poland wins. There are not enough proofs that this was a crime.

There are people who disagree with you in that thread, didn't you notice?

Who? Sergey apparently stopped disagreeing because I don't see any reply to my last post...

The other Sergey rather agrees (or maybe I agree with him because he posted first).

Actually 20.000-80.000

The reasonable upper boundary to take into consideration is 20,000 - as was stated in that thread by your countryman.

Apart from this some Soviet POWs stayed in Poland (because they were afraid of returning to Russia) or emigrated to Western Europe.

These could be "judged dead" by Soviet authorities, while in fact they continued to live for the next 50+ years.

And FYI, I'm not a communist.

Thanks for informing.

However, I am not sure what's better - being a communist or being a communist apologist.

It's hard to estimate exact number

It is hard to estimate anything.

That's why I suggested exhumation - bodies are still there. The largest cemetery (Strzalkow) has 8,000 buried.

Recently they showed that cemetery in Polish TV.

Millions of Russians for example (more than 20%)

Maybe because many Russians (mainly those of older generations) think that back then during Communism it was better than today.

Picture from May Day in Moscow, 2011:

Polish Social Democratic party also goes on parades on 1 May.

It doesn't mean they are communists (even though some of them were before 1989).

BTW - 1 May was a worker's holiday even before Lenin was born.

 

[red_elk]

The reasonable upper boundary to take into consideration is 20,000 - as was stated in that thread by your countryman.

The reasonable upper boundary is 80.000 - the highest estimation of Russian historians, such as Meltyukhov.

Who? Sergey apparently stopped disagreeing because I don't see any reply to my last post...

So, nobody replied to your last message in that thread and you think that you persuaded everybody there? Priceless..
Read it again. The fact that the last message there is yours doesn't mean that you are right.

Thanks for informing.
However, I am not sure what's better - being a communist or being a communist apologist.

Of course being Polish nationalist is better.

 

[Domen]

The part with communist apologist was supposed to be a joke. ^^

The reasonable upper boundary is 80.000 - the highest estimation of Russian historians, such as Meltyukhov.

Let's see who is this guy... :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Meltyukhov

Meltyukhov's Soviet-Polish Wars: Military and Political Confrontation in 1918-1939 was strongly criticized for bias and inaccuracies by journalist Peter Cheremushkin who works as a lecturer at Moscow State University[9] and historian Andrzej Nowak of Jagiellonian University and Institute of History, Polish Academy of Sciences.[10] According to Nowak, Mikhail Meltyukhov interprets Polish-Soviet conflicts as “fragments of eternal Western aggression against Russia.” Russia's (or resp. Soviet Union's) aggressions “are presented as purely defensive postures”, thus presenting Soviet crimes in occupied Poland “as a ‘peacekeeping mission’”[11] In his 2004 book Nowak lists in detail biases and inaccuracies concerning Polish-Russian relations in Meltyukhov's book, primarily pointing out that Poland is always portrayed as an aggressor and many instances of Russian aggression toward Poland are ignored.[11][a]

Considering that even such a "Polish nationalist" like Peter Cheremushkin criticizes him, I wouldn't call this number reasonable...

And if he really wrote about "Eternal western aggression against Russia" then I would call him... funny.

Especially that Mongols invaded and conquered Russia from the east - for that matter.

========================================

BTW - you claim that Meltyukhov claims 80,000 - while wikipedia says... :

he claims that 60,000 Soviet POWs died in Polish camps during the Polish-Soviet war, and all Polish POWs were returned safely (this claim has been contradicted by the recent finding of both Polish and Russian historians that for both sides, POWs losses were similar (15,000-20,000);

So which number he supports - 60,000 or 80,000?

Or maybe when he has a good day, he says 60,000, and when he feels bad - 80,000?

=====================================

Some more "clearly objective and reasonable" statements of "your" Meltyukhov:

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is declared non-infringing on Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact and as containing no anti-Polish aspects; Soviet invasion of Poland is termed 'peace operation' and 'liberation'; and main concern of Soviet government during its occupation of Poland was the well-being of Polish citizens (deportations were meant to safeguard Poles from retribution of now-liberated minorities in that region).[11] Nowak also criticizes the work on methodological grounds, noting its reliance of Soviet sources like Nikolai Kuzmin Kruszenije trietjego pochoda Ententy (1958) or Paweł Olszański's Riżskij dogowor (1969) and near complete omission of any works from Russian authors who would disagree with his claims, as well as ignoring the Polish or Western historiography.[11]

According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Meltyukhov

===========================================================

Regarding that discussion about illegality or legality of partitions of Poland from previous pages:

This article:

http://www.historia.net.pl/praca,88.html

Mentions further violations of international law by the partitioning powers:

"(...) The partitions of the Commonwealth [Rzeczpospolita] were violation of the then existing in Europe international law, law which was based yet on the principle established in the Roman Law of the Twelve Tables, which said pacta sunt servanda - agreements must be kept. Russia conducting the partitions violated the international agreement which was the treaty of Grzymułtowski. All partitioning powers violated their commitments made after the first partition, in which they pledged not to lay any further territorial claims towards Rzeczpospolita. Catherine II also violated her commitments from 1764 & 1768. Also other principles of the international law were violated, including the principle of sovereignity of the state and the principle of non-interference in internal affairs of other states. Constraint was applied to the Polish Parliament in order to force it to ratify the 1st and the 2nd partition treaties, which was also a violation of European law, which said that international agreements couldn't be concluded under coercion or duress. The 3rd partition wasn't even ratified, but it was yet only an act of violence, aggression."

 

[red_elk]

Just re-checked, he claims about 60.000 in his book. And he is not alone, there were another historians names, mentioned in that thread which you gave link to.

And don't feed me with wikipedia BS about Meltyukhov, I read two of his books.

For example this is a lie:

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is declared non-infringing on Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact and as containing no anti-Polish aspects; Soviet invasion of Poland is termed 'peace operation' and 'liberation'; and main concern of Soviet government during its occupation of Poland was the well-being of Polish citizens (deportations were meant to safeguard Poles from retribution of now-liberated minorities in that region)

He clearly stated that Soviet operation in Poland in 1939 qualified as aggression and called Katyn Soviet war crime.
I also didn't see the term "peace operation" regarding it in his books.
Though the operation definitely protected (and was aimed to protect) Belarussian and Ukrainian people from Nazi treatment.

 

[Lord Baal]

Can we talk about something other than how Russia and Poland had a lover's tiff?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Nothing except it is a good illustration of Polish double standards. It's ok when Poland participate in partition of Czechoslovakia, but it's bad when USSR participate in partition of Poland.

I don't see why it has to be an either/or. Both partitions could have been bad. There are people outside of Poland and Russia who can evaluate this situation and not care which nationality has to win this argument. They both can lose for all I care.

 

[Racsoviale]

no. I am pretty shure it is mandatory in WH threads to derail them into something involving Poland.

 

[red_elk]

I don't see why it has to be an either/or. Both partitions could have been bad. There are people outside of Poland and Russia who can evaluate this situation and not care which nationality has to win this argument. They both can lose for all I care.

You are right, both partitions can be considered as examples of "realpolitik", and they were very doubtful from the formal point of view of international law (I mean, Polish and Soviet actions).
I was talking about typical reaction of Poles, when you mention partition of Czechoslovakia in this context: "But that was absolutely different story!!!"

 

[Louis XXIV]

While I don't think it was a different story, the scale was a bit different. Maybe that has to do with population sizes, I don't know. But Poland was a brutal place to be in during WWII regardless of whose troops were where you were.