From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

[Domen]

Let's not forget that Poland's eastern borders after September 1939 were also universally internationally accepted, evenby France and Britain - and, for that matter, the Polish government-in-exile, eventually

"Leaders of western powers allied with Poland wanted first of all to prevent the even closer German-Soviet alliance. In the name of this goal they sacrificed - not for the first and not for the last time in modern history - the explicit interest of Poland. Thus ambassadors of Great Britain Howard Kennard and France Leon Noel exerted pressure on Polish government on 17 September 1939 in order to prevent it from formally declaring war on the Soviet Union. (...) In London and Paris it was still believed, that sooner or later the strategic interests of Germany and Soviet Russia would start to go in different directions, that first signs of future antagonism between both totalitarian powers would appear. In such conditions - it was thought - the Nazi-Soviet alliance would be possible to tear with use of elastic policy and good recognition of causes of future crisis of Berlin-Moscow relations. Due to this tactics of western powers, chosen after careful consultations and in full agreement on governmental level, Polish diplomacy could not gain more from its allies than irrelevant condemnation of Soviet aggression. Even those, purely verbal, declarations were edited in restrained and quite ambiguous way."

From:

"Poland of 1939 in the face of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact" by M. Kornat, Warsaw 2002.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Yeah. Whatever the legitimacy of their claim to that territory, they certainly weren't happy that it was taken over by the Soviets.

 

[Domen]

Daladier on 21 September in his speech said (translation):

"In reality, when on 23 August the agreement between Germany and the Soviet Union about the partition of Poland was signed, Mr. Hitler still claimed that he only wanted Danzig, plebiscite in the Corridor and one or two highways. He seemed to be trustworthy even when on his hands there already were valuable agreements of key importance for Germany and Russia. Today, how can we trust those who always violated their commitments and signatures."

Winston Churchill on 1 October 1939:

"Poland has been again overrun by two of the great Powers which held her in bondage for 150 years. (...) We could have wished that the Russian armies should be standing on their present line as the friends and allies of Poland instead of as invaders."

But then he adds something clearly aimed at "appeasing" Stalin:

"But that the Russian Armies should stand on this line was clearly necessary for the safety of Russia against the Nazi menace."

Churchill also called the Soviet aggression against Poland "the creation of the Eastern Front". Sic!

Where was that "Eastern Front" when France and British Expeditonary Corps got overran 8 months later?

It was providing supplies for Germany so that it could overrun France and Britain faster and easier...

 

[Civvi]

I think the fall of Nazi Germany started when the Bismark was sunk.

 

[Lord Baal]

I think the fall of Nazi Germany started when the Bismark was sunk.

Say whaaaa?

 

[Joecoolyo]

He' either trying to say that the sinking of the Bismark is what caused a general decline in Germany, eventually causing them to lose the war, which doesn't make any sense.

Or, he is using the sinking as a "marker", in which after the sinking, you see a decline in Germany's power, unrelated to the sinking of the Bismark.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I'm always amazed by the incredible gratitude Poles show for the Soviets saving half their country for two more years from the rule of an ideology that declared them racially inferior, and which systematically liquidated huge parts of their population.

It was the Poles who stood in the way of a real alliance against the Germans, because of their obstinate refusal to sign any defense agreement which included the Soviets, the only power who could have really protected them anyway. That they would rather take their chances with the aforementioned horrid ideology instead of associate with those dirty Russian communists speaks volumes about the clarity of their thought.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That's horrid thinking. They should have agreed to something and, because they didn't, they deserved to get invaded. That's protection like the Mafia gives protection.

 

[red_elk]

I'm always amazed by the incredible gratitude Poles show for the Soviets saving half their country for two more years from the rule of an ideology that declared them racially inferior, and which systematically liquidated huge parts of their population.

I think they don't really consider these lands as part of Polish mainland - and because of that they see Soviet actions more as destruction of Pilsudsky's dream about Poland being local great power in Eastern European region. As for Belorussian and Ukrainian majorities on these territories, they were mostly happy to get rid of Polish rule (for example some of Polish officers, captured by Red Army in 1939, asked to increase number of security guards for them, as they were afraid of local people) And especially, most of Belorussians and Ukrainians were happy not to get into German occupation zone. Since Belorussia lost 1/4 of its population during 3 years of German occupation, their fears were more than justified.

It was the Poles who stood in the way of a real alliance against the Germans, because of their obstinate refusal to sign any defense agreement which included the Soviets, the only power who could have really protected them anyway. That they would rather take their chances with the aforementioned horrid ideology instead of associate with those dirty Russian communists speaks volumes about the clarity of their thought.

Not only that - in 1938, before Czechoslovakia was partitioned between Germany, Hungary and Poland (actually, Poles did exactly the same what they are now blaming USSR for), USSR as ally of Czechoslovakia was very close to declaration of war against Poland and Germany, which in case of war would become allies. Munich pact indeed changed history a lot, WW2 could probably been prevented if France not betrayed its ally. Germany with Poland had no chances against France, Czechoslovakia and USSR in 1938.

 

[Junius]

I'm always amazed by the incredible gratitude Poles show for the Soviets saving half their country for two more years from the rule of an ideology that declared them racially inferior, and which systematically liquidated huge parts of their population.

It was the Poles who stood in the way of a real alliance against the Germans, because of their obstinate refusal to sign any defense agreement which included the Soviets, the only power who could have really protected them anyway. That they would rather take their chances with the aforementioned horrid ideology instead of associate with those dirty Russian communists speaks volumes about the clarity of their thought.

That's a good point. Its not like they had good reason to distrust Soviet motives.

 

[GoodGame]

That's a good point. Its not like they had good reason to distrust Soviet motives.

(sarcasm?) What about the Soviet-Polish War?

 

[Junius]

(sarcasm?) What about the Soviet-Polish War?

Quite a bit of it. They were clearly screwed either way.

 

[LightSpectra]

I'm always amazed by the incredible gratitude Poles show for the Soviets saving half their country for two more years from the rule of an ideology that declared them racially inferior, and which systematically liquidated huge parts of their population.

As Louis said, that's essentially the thinking of a gang protection racket.

It was the Poles who stood in the way of a real alliance against the Germans, because of their obstinate refusal to sign any defense agreement which included the Soviets, the only power who could have really protected them anyway.

Ridiculous. I can't see World War II lasting very long with Germany getting bogged down in the Sudetenland while France and Britain invades the Rhineland while Poland invades Silesia. The only reason Poland was roundly defeated was because the French hadn't prepared any offensive actions (which was, ironically, the cause of their defeat in 1870).

Of course, the fact that they had to fight the Germans on the western front while fighting the Soviets on the east didn't help much.

That they would rather take their chances with the aforementioned horrid ideology instead of associate with those dirty Russian communists speaks volumes about the clarity of their thought.

The Soviets weren't any worse than the Nazis. Actually, if I had lived in Poland in 1939, I would've treated them exactly the same, since I would've expected nothing less than Stalin but to repeat the Holodomor as revenge on the Poles. Thankfully, all he did was purge post-war Poland of any potential political opposition and militarily occupy it. (To say nothing, of course, to the Ochota massacre, Katyn massacre, and other Soviet atrocities.) Yes, Poland's unthankfulness is astounding

 

[innonimatu]

Ridiculous. I can't see World War II lasting very long with Germany getting bogged down in the Sudetenland while France and Britain invades the Rhineland while Poland invades Silesia. The only reason Poland was roundly defeated was because the French hadn't prepared any offensive actions (which was, ironically, the cause of their defeat in 1870).

Yeah, sure, the poles sure had a lot of options. You even forgot the part where martians would invade Berlin on behalf of the poles. It's just as realistic.

 

[LightSpectra]

Yeah, sure, the poles sure had a lot of options. You even forgot the part where martians would invade Berlin on behalf of the poles. It's just as realistic.

A war did almost occur over the Sudetenland, and the French could easily have just extended their Saarland offensive in 1939. Equating the probability of these two things to Nazi Martians shows you don't have a very firm grasp of how the events unfolded.

 

[Domen]

I'm always amazed by the incredible gratitude Poles show for the Soviets saving half their country for two more years from the rule of an ideology that declared them racially inferior, and which systematically liquidated huge parts of their population.

Of course we are grateful.

Come to Poland and see how we take care of cemeteries of Soviet soldiers who died on our soil. Most of them are in good shape. People, including school children, put flowers and torches on Red Army graves. And recently there has been an action aimed at honouring Soviet war dead.

Or no - you don't even have to come to Poland - just visit this thread:

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10043&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=50

Examples:

Spoiler :

http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=90c15954ff2581a9

http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=a0f95ad076731e72

http://www.nietoperz.militarni.pl/?lang=1&cat=163

The plaque below says:

"Here Lie 16643 Brave Soldiers of the Red Army
fallen for freedom of the Land of Pultusk in combats
against the Nazi occupier in years 1944 - 1945
WE SALUTE THEIR MEMORY"

There are always some flowers / torches on most of these graves... And we have what year? 2011.

There is no comparison between this and the way how Belarus / Ukraine / Russia and also Lithuania "take care" of Polish graves and historical monuments on their territory. I saw how old Polish castles look like in modern Belarus - devastated & in ruins... Also old Polish cemeteries in Belarus / Lithuania are devastated...

So we are grateful to men who lost their lives while fighting on our soil against Nazism - regardless of nationality.

However, we are never going to be grateful for bad things that Soviet regime did to us.

As for Belorussian and Ukrainian majorities on these territories,

Strange that according to the Polish census there were less Ukrainians and Belarusians and more Poles in that land than according to Soviet census.

Vladimir Beshanov in his "Krasnyj Blickrig" explains this well:

"Thirdly, "everyone wants to live": during the times of Pilsudski it was more comfortable to be Polish, during the times of Stalin it was more comfortable to be Belarussian or Ukrainian."

And:

"Statistics is an equally interesting science to history. Everyone interprets it on their own terms."

Source:

Beshanov, "Krasnyj Blickrig", p. 142

they were mostly happy to get rid of Polish rule

As Vladimir Beshanov in "Krasnyj Blickrig" writes, this is a so called bulls hit.

For example (while writing about "locals" in the Polesie region):

"Representatives of this last group, who when asked "who are you?" were answering "we are locals and our language is local" turned out to number over 700,000. Polish demographers were treating "locals" as not fully developed Poles, Soviet - as polonized Belarussians. In the liberated Pinsk [in 1939] editor of "Poleska Prawda", graduate of Communist Institute of Journalists, M. M. Vaganova brought seven private print shops to bankruptcy, in order to organize one huge Soviet print shop as quickly as possible. On 26.09.1939 she printed the first circulation of "Poleska Prawda" in Belarussian language. Her astonishment was great when it turned out that majority of persons who arrived at the ceremony were not able either to acquaint themselves with the programme speech of comrade Molotov, nor with the orders of military authorities, nor with the remarks of "our correspondents" - because they didn't speak Belarussian."

Source:

Beshanov, "Krasnyj Blickrig", p. 142

(for example some of Polish officers, captured by Red Army in 1939, asked to increase number of security guards for them, as they were afraid of local people)

Smells like a Soviet bulls hit.

There is even a special word for this kind of Communist bulls hit in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agitprop

And especially, most of Belorussians and Ukrainians were happy not to get into German occupation zone.

The same Beshanov as well as other authors prove that many Belarusians and Ukrainians were very happy when the German army came in 1941.

It was only later when they realized that Hitler was even worse than Stalin.

And when it comes to 1939:

In 1939 there were many Ukrainian nationalists who actually collaborated with German Abwehra (intelligence service) and army.

There was even a so called Ukrainian Legion (Ukrainische Legion, codename BBH - Berg-Bauern Hilfe):

Roman Sushko - commander of pro-Nazi Ukrainische Legion cooperating with the Wehrmacht, September 1939:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сушко,_Роман

For more info on pro-Nazi Ukrainische Legion and its anti-Polish activities check this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=164834&p=1455803&hilit=Ukrainische+Legion#p1455803

To summ up:

Some Ukrainians (Ukrainian communists) were indeed happy not to get into German occupation zone.

But there were also other Ukrainians (Ukrainian nationalists), who were very happy to get into German zone.

And there were certainly also many Ukrainains, who didn't like both Stalin and Hitler and were happy to live in Poland.

Finally - there were a lot of Ukrainians who were indifferent and it did not matter for them at all...

Thus - contrary to your Neo-Communist claim that all Ukrainians loved "mother Russia" - reality was much more complex.

Since Belorussia lost 1/4 of its population during 3 years of German occupation, their fears were more than justified.

They were not afraid of German army in 1941, as sources indicate.

They were happy for being "liberated" from the Soviet rule.

Of course a bit later it turned out that under Hitler it was not better, but even worse. But it was only later.

more as destruction of Pilsudsky's dream about Poland being local great power in Eastern European region.

Pilsudski always wanted independent Ukraine and Belarus:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10448431&postcount=129

And he wanted a local power able to resist Russia & Germany - yes - but he wanted a FEDERAL state / UNION of Poland, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine.

All united but independent. And free from "Bolshevik disease" - as he used to call your beloved Communism...

It was the Poles who stood in the way of a real alliance against the Germans, because of their obstinate refusal to sign any defense agreement which included the Soviets, the only power who could have really protected them anyway. That they would rather take their chances with the aforementioned horrid ideology instead of associate with those dirty Russian communists speaks volumes about the clarity of their thought.

I already explained it here but I guess that a Neo-Communist like you will not even try to understand this point anyway:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=161567&p=1583299#p1575278

an ideology that declared them racially inferior, and which systematically liquidated huge parts of their population.

Hitler initially wanted Poland as his ally against the Soviet Union (to join the Anti-Comintern Pact), but Poland refused. You should be grateful for this decision because those additional dozens of Polish divisons could determine the outcome of "Barbarossa" in favour of Hitler...

Nazi ideology considered Romanians & Slovakians as racially inferior too - yet it was not an obstacle for them to become III Reich's allies...

That they would rather take their chances with the aforementioned horrid ideology instead of associate with those dirty Russian communists

The ideology of "dirty Russian communists" during the rules of Stalin (Stalinist ideology) was only slightly better than that of Nazi Germany...

Not only that - in 1938, before Czechoslovakia was partitioned between Germany, Hungary and Poland (actually, Poles did exactly the same what they are now blaming USSR for), USSR as ally of Czechoslovakia was very close to declaration of war against Poland and Germany, which in case of war would become allies.

Better read this article by Zbigniew Pruski about the Polish occupation of Zaolzie:

In Polish:

http://forteca.w.activ.pl/zaolzie.html

Translated (google translate + some corrections) version:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=72399&p=1466377&hilit=Zaolzie#p1466377

was very close to declaration of war against Poland and Germany, which in case of war would become allies.

Once again you are wrong but this does not surprise me any longer:

Polish minister of foreign affairs, Józef Beck, clearly stated that "(...) Poland could not be on the side of Germany, even indirectly":

Original:

Stosunki polsko-czechosłowackie w całym dwudziestoleciu nie układały się najlepiej, ze strony Warszawy była to całkowita niechęć połączona z niewiarą w możliwość utrzymania się Republiki i szukania z nią porozumienia. Istoty rzeczy nie stanowiły losy Zaolzia i sporu z lat 1918-20. Pewnym czynnikiem była prorosyjska polityka Czechosłowacji gdy chodziło o pretensje terytorialne Rosji do ziem polskich. Dowodem tego są materiały polskiego MSZ z marca 1938 r. "...Dopóki na czele państwa czeskosłowackiego stoi Benesz, lub dopóki odgrywać będzie jakąkolwiek inną rolę decydującą w państwie, oraz dopóki rządzić będzie lewica czeska, współpraca Polski z Czechosłowacją wydaje się mi wykluczona.... Dzisiaj ważnym momentem jest również to, że Czechosłowacja ulega wpływom Rosji Sowieckiej i wszelkim Międzynarodówkom (III, II, tworzącej się IV, masonerii itd.). Stąd wypływało, że w stosunku do Polski kieruje się nie interesem własnym, lecz interesami Międzynarodówek. Biorąc ogólnie, wszystkie propozycje czeskie pod adresem Polski są koniunkturalne, a przede wszystkim nieszczere. Nigdy nie będą lojalnie wykonywane...". Dołączała się czeska niechęć do wiązania się z państwem w jego mniemaniu zagrożonym ze wszystkich stron, jakim była Polska oraz niechęć do zajmowania stanowiska w sporach polsko-niemieckich, gdyż zdaniem Benesza Czechosłowacja i Niemcy nie miały powodów do zatargu. Z drugiej strony polityka Becka godziła się z możliwością zaboru Czech przez Niemcy i Słowacji przez Węgry. Co więcej widziała w zainteresowaniach niemieckich Czechami szansę przedłużenia pokoju na własnej granicy z Niemcami.

Czechosłowacja sprawę swego bezpieczeństwa bez zastrzeżeń związała z Francją, z którą stosunki opierały się na przesłankach znacznie bliższej współpracy niż stosunki polsko-francuskie. Czechosłowacja nie weszła nigdy na drogę samodzielnej polityki na wzór polityki polskiej. Co ważniejsze także sojusz wojskowy ze Związkiem Sowieckim miał klauzulę wykonalności w postaci wypełnienia zobowiązań sojuszniczych przez Francję. W momencie gdy zarysowała się groźba konfliktu czesko-niemieckiego, na "...zapytanie wystosowane przez prezydenta Mościckiego do prezydenta Benesza, czy Czechosłowacja będzie się bronić, z dodatkiem, że gdyby tak było, Polska zaangażuje się po jej stronie, Benesz odpowiedział po kilku dniach, że Czechosłowacja szans obrony nie ma i że chwyci za broń tylko w razie wykonania sojuszu wojskowego przez Francję, podkreślając jednak, że Czechosłowacja sama inicjatywy wojskowej nie podejmie. W Warszawie oceniono tę odpowiedź jako uzgodnioną ze Związkiem Sowieckim..." Decyzja wojny w obronie Czechosłowacji powzięta w Paryżu oznaczałaby automatycznie wykonanie sojuszu polsko-francuskiego przeciwko Niemcom. Rząd polski na tę możliwość był przygotowany, choć w nią nie wierzył, gdyż oceniano trafnie pragnienie Francji utrzymania "pokoju za wszelką cenę". Jednak w razie przerodzenia się kryzysu w wojnę europejską, zdaniem ministra J. Becka należało w ciągu 24 godzin zmienić polska politykę gdyż Polska nie mogła być po stronie Niemiec, nawet pośrednio.

(...)

W czasie gdy kryzys czechosłowacki zaczynał wchodzić w ostrzejszą fazę, od 5 do 19 września trwały na Wołyniu wielkie manewry, w których uczestniczył sam Marszałek E. Śmigły-Rydz. Praktycznym ich celem miało być przestudiowanie organizacji oraz zdolności do działania ćwiczebnej dywizji kawalerii, wypróbowanie możliwości wielkiej jednostki pancerno-motorowej oraz użycia i dowodzenia większym zgrupowaniem lotnictwa, a także próba oddziału powietrzno-desantowego. Manewry zakończone zostały defiladą w Łucku będącą zarazem wielką manifestację narodowo-patriotyczną. Manewry te poza zadaniami szkoleniowymi mogły być w zamierzeniach polskich władz demonstrację siły i gotowości czynnego przeciwstawienia się próbom przemarszu wojsk sowieckich przez terytorium Polski. Należy pamiętać że władze sowieckie od maja deklarowały gotowość udzielenia Czechosłowacji pomocy. Przeszkodą był brak zgody Polski i Rumunii na przemarsz wojsk sowieckich przez ich terytoria. 15 marca komisarz Litwinow na pytanie dziennikarzy jak Związek Sowiecki będzie mógł spełnić swój obowiązek w wypadku agresji przeciw Czechosłowacji skoro nie ma wspólnej granicy odpowiedział: "jakiś korytarz na pewno się znajdzie".

Google translation:

Czechoslovak-Polish relations throughout the interwar period did not create themselves best from Warsaw, it was combined with the reluctance of the total disbelief in the possibility of a continuation of the Republic and seek with her agreement. Did not constitute the essence of things and lots Zaolzie dispute with the year 1918-20. A factor was the pro-Russian policy of Czechoslovakia when it came to Russia's territorial claims to Polish territory. Evidence of this material is the Polish Foreign Ministry in March 1938 "... As long as the head of state stands Czechoslovak Benes, or until any other will play a decisive role in the country, and will be left to govern as long as Czech, Polish co-operation with Czechoslovakia seems to me to be excluded. ... Today is also the important point is that Czechoslovakia is influenced by Soviet Russia and all Międzynarodówkom [Internationals / International Workingmen's Associations] (III, II, IV, forming, masonry, etc.). Hence stemmed, in relation to the Polish are not guided by self-interest but the interests Międzynarodówek . Taking in general, all the proposals at the Czech Polish are cyclical, and especially disingenuous. I never will be loyally carried out ...". Czech affix a reluctance to enter the country, in its view threatened from all sides, which was Poland and the reluctance to take a position in the Polish-German dispute, since, according to Benes of Czechoslovakia and Germany had no reason to quarrel. On the other hand, policies Beck tolerated the possibility of annexation by Germany, the Czech Republic and Slovakia by Hungary. What's more she saw in the interests of German Czechs a chance to extend the facilities on its own border with Germany.

Flag question its security without reservation bound with France, with whom relations were based on considerations far more closely than the Polish-French relations. Czechoslovakia has not entered into the path of self-ever policy on the model of Polish policy. More importantly, the military alliance with the Soviet Union had enforceable obligations as allies of France. Once outlined the threat of Czech-German conflict, a "... request made by President Moscicki to President Benes that Czechoslovakia would defend himself with that if that were the case, Poland will engage on her side, Benes said, after a few On that Czechoslovakia has no chance of defense and that whip up arms only if the implementation of a military alliance by France, stressing however that Czechoslovakia alone has not taken the military initiative. In Warsaw, this response was assessed as agreed with the Soviet Union ... " The decision of the war in defense of Czechoslovakia, which shall be taken automatically mean a Paris performance of the Polish-French alliance against Germany. The Polish government on this possibility has been prepared, although it did not believe it as it accurately assessed the desire of France to maintain "peace at any price." However, in case if crisis turned out in the European war, according to the minister Jozef Beck during 24 hours the policy of Poland had to be changed because Poland could not be on the side of Germany, even indirectly.

(...)

While the Czechoslovak crisis began in the fall sharper phase, from 5 to 19 September took place in Volhynia large maneuvers, where he attended Marshall E. Smigly-Rydz. Their practical aim was to study the organization and the ability to act Learner cavalry divisions, the possibility of trying out the great armored motor units and the use of command and more a grouping of aviation, as well as an attempt to unit air-desantowego. The maneuvers have been completed in Lutsk parade which is also a great manifestation of the national-patriotic. These maneuvers off the training tasks may be the intentions of the Polish authorities, a demonstration of strength and readiness of active attempts to oppose the passage of Soviet troops through Polish territory. Please note that the Soviet authorities in May of Czechoslovakia declared its readiness to provide assistance. Another obstacle was the lack of consent of the Polish and Romania, the march of Soviet troops through their territories. March 15 Commissioner Litvinov answering journalists to a question how the Soviet Union will be able to fulfill its obligation in the event of German aggression against Czechoslovakia, since there is no common border, said, "a corridor for sure will be found."

 

[Domen]

I can't see World War II lasting very long with Germany getting bogged down in the Sudetenland

Why should it get bogged down in the Sudetenland?

Czechoslovakian Army was not as strong as according to some myths. The same refers to their fortifications.

Plus they had considerable problem with minorities (Germans and Slovakians) not willing to fight - like Yugoslavia in 1941.

Germans also had quite a good plan of invading Czechoslovakia from all sides - see this and previous pages:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=327702&page=4&highlight=Pre-war+Czechoslovak+army

 

[red_elk]

Strange that according to the Polish census there were less Ukrainians and Belarusians and more Poles in that land than according to Soviet census.

Nothing strange in it. And disagreement between Polish and Soviet census doesn't mean that Polish one was right, Curzon line was drawn to the West of that places for reason.

Smells like a Soviet bulls hit.
There is even a special word for this kind of Communist bulls hit in English:

You don't believe that Polish officers could be in danger because of locals?
Here is another example of "Soviet bullsh*t":

The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943 when a senior UPA commander, Dmytro Klyachkivsky, ordered the liquidation of the entire male Polish population between 16 and 60 years of age.[9][10] Despite this, most of the victims were women and children.[2] The actions of the UPA resulted in over 35,000 Polish civilian casualties in Volhynia and more than 10,000 in Eastern Galicia. Ukrainian casualties at the hands of Poles are estimated at over 2,000 in Volhynia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

By the way, can I also declare your Polish sources as "Polish nationalistic bullsh*t", if I dislike them?

The same Beshanov as well as other authors prove that many Belarusians and Ukrainians were very happy when the German army came in 1941.
It was only later when they realized that Hitler was even worse than Stalin.

Sure. Minsk was bombed to dust in the very first days of war, and captured in June 28. Thousands of civilians were murdered or hanged, to make Belorussians especially grateful to their German liberators.

Pilsudski always wanted independent Ukraine and Belarus:
And he want a local great power - yes - but he wanted a FEDERAL state / UNION of Poland, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine.

No problem, Russia also was and is a FEDERAL state. Soviet Belarus and Ukraine were part of Soviet UNION too. Everything like Pilsudsky wanted, just without Poland.

Better read this article by Zbigniew Pruski about the Polish occupation of Zaolzie:

What's wrong with my statement?

Polish minister of foreign affairs, Józef Beck, clearly stated that "(...) Poland could not be on the side of Germany, even indirectly":

This only means that Beck didn't want to break Polish-French relations.
In case if USSR attacked Poland over Czechoslovakian issue, Germany was ready to assist Poland militarily - and Poland was in no position to refuse that help.

 

[red_elk]

(for example some of Polish officers, captured by Red Army in 1939, asked to increase number of security guards for them, as they were afraid of local people)

Smells like a Soviet bulls hit.
There is even a special word for this kind of Communist bulls hit in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agitprop

...

For more info on pro-Nazi Ukrainische Legion and its anti-Polish activities check this thread:

Another shot in the foot

 

[Domen]

No "shot in the foot" - simply forum is down. Link is correct. 5 minutes ago it was working.

Wait 30 minutes and try again.

=====================

Works again:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=164834#p1455803

This only means that Beck didn't want to break Polish-French relations.

How so?

Considering that Beck did not send this to the French but it was an internal message to other members of Polish government?

What's wrong with my statement?

First of all that you mix up Czechoslovakia into Polish-Soviet matters.

The fact that something wrong happened in Polish-Czechoslovakian relations cannot be an excuse for Soviet actions.

And BTW - Czechoslovakia was not the "innocent" one in the Polish-Czechoslovakian relations.

Both states contributed to considerable worsening of relations between themselves yet in 1920s.

When Poland was fighting against the Soviets in the war of 1919 - 1920, Czechoslovakia invaded Poland and took Zaolzie (Teschen) by force.

In 1938 Poland only regained it - also taking advantage of a very unpleasant for Czechoslovakia situation.

No problem, Russia also was and is a FEDERAL state. Soviet Belarus and Ukraine were part of Soviet UNION too.

Everyone knows that Soviet federation was a fiction and everything was centrally ruled from Moscow by the Communist Party...

And modern Russia is a real federation, not fictional, but it doesn't include Belarus and Ukraine any longer...

Nazi III Reich was also oficially a federation (Reich means Federation), just like Soviet Union.

But it was only a fiction and in fact it was a unitary state (while Weimar Republic really was a federation).

A bit complicated, isn't it?

Everything like Pilsudsky wanted, just without Poland.

Pilsudski wanted a federation without "Bolshevik disease"...

You don't believe that Polish officers could be in danger because of locals?
Here is another example of "Soviet bullsh*t":

Now you prove that you don't know much about the origins of the violence in Volhynia in 1943 - 1944...

BTW - the article says about "male population", not about officers.

And remember - 1939 is not 1943... During these 4 - 5 years a lot of things happened in that area...

And disagreement between Polish and Soviet census doesn't mean that Polish one was right

Did I even claim so? Or Beshanov?

I thought that Beshanov pretty clearly explained that no of them was right (or both were right - depends how you interpret this)...

Curzon line was drawn to the West of that places for reason.

But at the same time Curzon line was drawn to the East of Lwów / Lviv and this part of eastern Galicia for reason...

can I also declare your Polish sources as "Polish nationalistic bullsh*t", if I dislike them?

First of all - I am not sure if you can declare English wikipedia as a "Polish source" or even "source"...

Sure. Minsk was bombed to dust in the very first days of war, and captured in June 28. Thousands of civilians were murdered or hanged, to make Belorussians especially grateful to their German liberators.

Belarusians lived only in Minsk ???

BTW - you claimed that Belarusians were grateful for being "liberated by Soviets from the Polish rule" in 1939.

So how is it possible that many Belarusians fought well in ranks of the Polish army - also against Soviets?

For example in the Polish defense of Grodno against Soviet forces:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10328381

"The enemy struck towards the gardens of Grodno, but was defeated between the fences and is now withdrawing towards Stanislawowo. Simultaneously from the direction of Skidel enemy armour is attacking. Tanks ran over us, but enemy infantry was defeated and after losing several KIA and captured wounded it retreated towards Skidel. At 11:00 I received an order to withdraw, covered by machine guns, to the Sekret forest. [...] at 12:30 I was encircled by enemy armour and called by Soviet forces to surrender. With heavy casualties I broke through behind the marshland towards Grandicze. Soldiers were fighting excellently, despite the fact that 50% of my company were Belarusians. Casualties were 2 officers and 57 men. On 21 September in the afternoon we decided to leave the city, this decision was forced by lack of ammunition and enemy superiority. Our units broke away from the Soviets and across Stanislawowo marched towards the Lithuanian border, which was crossed by the Spare Unit of 19 Inf.Div. on 23 September in Kodzie. Soldiers were disarmed and interned, but most of them soon escaped and broke through to the West."

I admit that Ukrainians were very often hostile towards Poles and either pro-German (like Sushko and his men) or pro-Soviet.

But Belarusians? Belarusians were considered the most "politically" reliable minority in the Polish army - even more than Jews!

The ranking of reliability of minorities was considered to be as follows:

Belarusians, Jews, Ukrainians, Germans.

Which of course doesn't mean that there were no Ukrainians and Germans who fought eagerly in the Polish army.

In case if USSR attacked Poland over Czechoslovakian issue, Germany was ready to assist Poland militarily

Sources?

And why should the USSR attack Poland - not Germany (or maybe Hungary?) - over Czechoslovakian issue?

Poland actually offered help to Czechoslovakia against Germany before it decided to demand the return of Teschen from Czechoslovakia.

But the condition under which Poland offered help against Germany, was that Czechoslovakia would resist Germany and that after Germany was defeated, there would be a plebiscite in the Teschen area which was illegally annexed by Czechoslovakia in 1920 in order to legally divide the area between both states.

Czechoslovakia refused to accept Polish conditions so Poland changed its policy towards Czechoslovakia into a "less friendly one"...

You can read about this and more in the article by Zbigniew Pruski I linked above.

- and Poland was in no position to refuse that help.

Why not?

Previously you even claimed that Poland refused "Soviet help" against Germany in 1939.

So why do you think that the same Poland would accept "German help" against the USSR in 1938?

I think it would rather fight alone against the USSR just like it did against Germany one year later.

Or rather - Poland would resist the Soviet invasion with help of Romania.

Because Poland and Romania had a defensive alliance signed in case of a Soviet invasion against any of these countries.