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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I like how he discusses "fans" (uses another term) and how even most of them by now were let down. But - indeed - bad writing isn't something that just happened in s8e03; it was this way for many seasons now.
    Also like that he refers to fans trying to account for so many messed up writing by saying "it's just fantasy!" :jesus:
     
  2. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Sure I expected you might say that, but if you're thinking "Well that was different, cause he hit him in his small thermal exhaust port right below the main port", then I'd respond that the GoT dragons don't speak fluent English either... You want them to be just like Smaug, but they're not the same. They're alot more like giant lizards that can fly and breath fire, than like miniature death stars. The Buffy vampires are different from the Underworld vampires are different from the Twilight vampires are different from the Chronicles vampires, despite the fact that they have some similarities, right? TBH I'd say the fact that they aren't invulnerable is part of the point and makes them more entertaining because it creates more tension. I'll also add that by now, we're so far into the weeds away from GRRM's books that it seems pointless to be handwringing over non-adherence to "cannon" at this point.

    Plus again... what about the way Viseryon died to the Night King's icicle? At the time, did you feel like that "too easy" as well? Or is this somehow different because it was a "magic" icicle?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  3. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    I think Tyrion ends up on the throne
    perhaps with Sansa besides him
     
  4. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I agree Sommerswerd, I didn't expect the writing to be as good after the original source material was over.
    And Yeah, I gave them a pass since it was magic icicle.
    And the too easy was when the second bolt almost took his dead off.
    I was more astounded at the continued accuracy when firing that distance at a flying object.
    The made it seem more reasonable because of volume but the first one hit. How likely was that?
    And if the shot could be lined up, they shouldn't have been ambushed.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I liked the way the scene was done where Rhaegal went down. It was a complete surprise to me... At that point I was barely paying attention, because it seemed so innocuous... we've seen this so many times... Dany taking her dragons on a "Big Stick" walk around the block... nothing to see here... I felt so safe about the scene that my wife and I were actually chatting about something unrelated to what was going on in the show, and then... BAM!!

    I was like, WTF?!? Did they just shoot the dragon?? Wow they got him goo... Oh snap! Where are those bolts coming fr...OMG!! They got him in the neck!?! Oh no hes bleeding everywhere! Is he going to die?!? Oh hes dead!! WTF Just happened?!?:eek:

    The suddenness of it really worked for me. because I was completely in the moment... just as relaxed and nonchalant as Dany was, so I was completely taken off guard by the attack.
     
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  6. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Meh. This episode was more enjoyable than the previous one (character interaction is definitely more aptly handled than plot), but it's still the same "no more book to draw from, so let's get Hollywood" that we've got for two seasons.
    People teleport all over the kingdoms, Euron is basically a Ramsay deus ex machina to level the field by magically killing whatever is needed to prevent the logical crushing of Lannister forces when it should happen, fanservice aplenty (not the sexual part, which has actually gone down, but the "fandom wants this, so let's give them this shipping and that retort and so on") and idiotic set pieces which exists to (try to) look awesome (seriously, WTF what this idea of putting the whole head of the invasion right in front of a whole wall of ballista ?) but, well, don't.
    Also, suddenly half the army is still alive, despite the previous episode showing clearly that only maybe a handful were not killed. Totally expected (I don't remember how I phrased it exactly, but I made the point about it that all is about the spectacle, which itself exists only for show and doesn't actually constraint the plot).

    Well, not surprising after all, my beef is with a core change in the serie, so it's unlikely to change, and it's likely that I'll have the exact same complaints for every episodes. So well.
    I actually predicted the dragon this week (though I expected one to die last week).
    I predicted that Jaime would kill Cersei veeeeery long ago, but I wonder if they won't try to shoehorn a "surprise" by making Euron killing her (when he finally notices that he can't be the father of the child).
     
  7. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Well at least they said it would take time for Jon to get south. I was impressed they did that.
     
  8. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    This ain't exactly just a last two seasons thing. Teleportation is an old Martin specialty from as far back as A Clash of Kings (as is "magically killing whatever is needed to prevent the logical crushing of Lannister forces when it should happen").
     
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  9. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Warlord

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    The idea that the show hasn't experienced a decrease in quality over the last 3-4 seasons just doesn't pass the smell test for me, @Dachs. I mean I admire your effort to pretend like it's always been like this, and you can point to isolated instances of issues in s1-s4 without a doubt (as well as issues in the books I'm sure, haven't read them) but to me it's painfully obvious that these issues were not nearly as salient or as hard to explain as they are now.

    That being said, with somewhat lower expectations, I enjoyed episode 4 more than I did episode 3, by a long shot. For being a pivot back to Cersei as I feared it was, I think it was about as good as it could be.

    First I thought Euron taking down the dragon worked great, as a surprise and as a plot point within the provided lore. First of all, these scorpion siege units have been hyped as a threat to the dragons since they were introduced. Qyburn talked about how he worked out improvements to them, I'm sure in terms of accuracy and power compared to how they were 300 years ago. This would explain how the odds are no longer a million to one. Furthermore, if you also consider that these dragons are young, a maybe 3-4 years old at most, and rhaegal spent a considerable amount of time locked away in a dungeon, which stunted its development, it makes perfect sense that it could pierce their armor. Dragons never stop growing and live hundreds of years, it seems not just possible but likely that rhaegal's scales haven't been fully developed yet, and are weaker than Drogons.

    Now hitting 3/3 isn't really defensible logically except as a near miracle, but I simply didn't have any problem giving them that creative liberty for dramatic and surprise affect. They could have just as easily did 1 arrow down the throat or in the eye, so it's not like it really matters from a plot perspective, just give me a cool scene, which they did.

    Dany's descent into madness is working for me as well. It's believable, we have been seeing her making poor and fiery choices since what, season 5 or even earlier? Plus it runs in her blood, obviously. And frankly her acting and reactions are pretty good. First with Rhaegal then to Missandei, plus this Jon stuff, plus feeling isolated, I'm digging it. It's really a great bit of story telling and I'm super excited for next episode. And back to the Missandei scene, it was awesome. And her final word... "Dracarys", gave me chills. A song of ice and fire, the two threats to Westeros, I like it.

    On top of all that, the Tyrion and Varys scenes were very nice. Second best episode of the season for me.
     
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  10. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I love how they had to apologize for leaving a starbucks cup in one of the scenes.
     
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  11. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    It's fairly rude to accuse me of conducting this discussion in bad faith for apparently no reason when the simpler and more obvious explanation is that I actually, genuinely believe it and don't need to "pretend" anything.

    I don't think that they constitute "isolated instances" at all; they formed crucial moments in the first few seasons. Take the quotation from Akka, "magically killing whatever is needed to prevent the logical crushing of Lannister forces when it should happen". That is literally direct from A Clash of Kings and Season 2. Renly Baratheon amasses a colossal army, in the neighborhood of 100,000 (a silly number, but let that go) from the Reach and most of the Stormlands. He politically and militarily outplays both Tywin and Stannis and makes a bid for Robb's aid. Even without it, Renly possesses the military might to annihilate every other army fighting in Westeros, and the road to King's Landing is virtually unguarded. Buuuuuut he is undone by a magic demon baby created by Stannis and Melisandre that murders him in the night and causes the disintegration of his coalition. Meanwhile, Tywin spends most of the season ineffectually defending against Robb's armies in the Riverlands from Harrenhal (another brainless decision from the ostensible military genius of the continent), then packs up and leaves for King's Landing to try to beat Stannis' fleet to Blackwater Bay. His land army makes much better time than Stannis' fleet, which is utterly incomprehensible (the "teleportation" mentioned), and arrives shortly after the Baratheon troops, just in time to save the city and wreck Stannis' bid for the throne.

    This is literally the foundation of the story of the war for Westeros in the second book. It is not an "isolated instance". It is an increasingly absurd series of tricks to get the incompetent Lannisters out of the deep hole they've dug themselves: the exact thing about which Akka was complaining.

    My previous post had a litany of similar things. Martin's greatest and most iconic moments, the execution of Ned Stark and the Red Wedding, were set up by having characters uncharacteristically act like complete idiots in previous seasons. (Well, more complete idiots. Really, the only important people who weren't obviously morons in the first several seasons were Varys and Tyrion. And Varys mostly got away with it for not having an obvious motivation for awhile, until his Daenerys allegiance in the show/his Young Griff allegiance in the books.) And part of the reason that the more recent seasons have struggled is because Martin flung his characters to the far corners of the world and made it difficult, if not impossible, to bring them back together in a satisfying way. I didn't come up with the "if the third act doesn't work, the problem is usually in the first act" thing. Billy Wilder did.

    None of that means that I think that the current showrunners are particularly competent or effective. Their early additions to the book story, like their mutilation of the Dorne plot, were awful. They have been willing to ignore characterization more readily than in the past; their arcs for some characters (particularly Jaime) have been terrible lately. And while Martin was bad about things taking time and distance being a thing, the past several seasons have been worse. Part of that is trying to pull everything back together quickly, which I acknowledge and understand as a valid concern and an issue often borne of Martin's own errors, but it still strains belief and makes the show harder to enjoy.

    I think the difference between Now and Back Then is that the showrunners have exaggerated many of Martin's worst tendencies as an author. Where you see a steep decline in quality I see one that is decidedly less steep, and I'm more willing to place blame on things from the first part of the series than you are.
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    As noted a few seasons ago, it seems that show Euron took littlefinger's advice literally: "fight every battle, everywhere" :D
    I don't doubt that Martin has many flaws as a writer (i only got to notice his blunt writing, having only read 2,5 chapters or similar), but the show writers are just even worse.

    Well, whatever, nevermind ^_^

     
  13. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Warlord

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    I don't think you are acting in bad faith. What I meant by my usage of the word 'pretend' was that I view that narrative as a fantasy, not that you are being disingenuous... but even that sounds overly critical compared to my actual state of mind, so it was a poor word choice on my part and I apologize for that.

    The magic baby and end of Renly was the worst part of the early seasons for me. Tywin's strategy at harrenhal was quite defensible by my estimation, and the timeline is set up in the show had enough blanks that you can fill in such that the "teleportation" isn't necessary, at least I was able to justify it at the time I don't recall all the details anymore though.

    I'm not sure it matters all that much who came up with it.

    Your recount of the Red Wedding you outlined in a previous post had some parts I agreed with, I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion of the absurdity of it all. For Ned's death, I couldn't figure out what the point was with the distinction between playing the game poorly an opting out of playing the game. What would it have looked like for Ned to not play the game? Return to Winterfell? In the show I didn't get the sense that he wasn't playing the game, some people may have stated that but then I just disagree with them. I got the sense he was bad it and that is why he died. That to me is the best interpretation of what we saw on the screen, and it worked well for me.

    Ultimately it's a question of salience and degree with these issues. The offences were fewer and less egregious back then, that is my assertion. Nearly impossible to prove and I doubt we can have a meeting of the minds here. The major thing, Renly, was an isolated instance, the others were maybe a thing here or there to nitpick about, but now I can't help but feel bombarded with them episode after episode.

    So maybe we aren’t as far apart as I thought. I guess my only thought here is that I could think of far better and more satisfying ways to wrap this story up than what we got. It was disappointing on many levels, largely in terms of execution, but also just poor follow through on things set up. So you want to blame the first part of the series, but I don't think most of the issues I'm seeing are rooted in earlier seasons. The biggest is just sloppy execution, and making choices that weren't forced in any way, like Arya killing the NK, and having a lame anti-climactic long night.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I predict that there will be more dragons introduced. I have no idea where they will come from, but that's my prediction.

    I also predict that Jamie will try to bargain for Tyrion's life with Cersei and the whole thing will be derailed by an argument over the parentage of her supposed pregnancy... culminating with Cersei being killed.

    Gendry ending up as king when everyone is dead is a nice, bold theory... although its hard to commit to that as a prediction at this point... Dany promoted him for a reason though....
     
  15. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I was also starting to think it's going to be Gendry after my last post. After the show has gone through twists and turns to continue to surprise people, it will end up being someone "you're not necessarily thinking of at the moment".

    I'm surprised you see such a big distinction between this and Arya killing the Night King.

    Arya had also been prepared and set up as the one to do the deed. She had spent probably years training as the best assassin in the world and the narrative brought her to Winterfell for the final stand - if not for this, then to what end? Her flying out of nowhere isn't really defensible logically, but I didn't have any problem giving them that creative liberty because of the chaos of battle and her desperation that must have driven her to make an impossible leap. They could have just as easily shown her skulking about on the roofs and walls before that, so it's not like it really matters from a plot perspective, just give me a cool scene, which they did.

    Euron appeared out of nowhere on a ship in broad daylight, apparently unseen by things flying above the sea. I find that less convincing. But I get that people like stories that don't dwell on making things make sense, and that the plot is now just a vehicle to bring about dramatic situations, cool scenes and character moments. That's TV, I guess.
     
  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    From the episode trailer you see the golden company moving an (apparent) prisoner (the hooded figure). It is possible that a youtube theory is correct in explaining this as the golden company/iron bank switching sides (after being told by Varys that Jon is in fact a Targaryen AND a Stark).
    Unless it is more underwhelming, and it ends up being just Jaime liberated from captivity at Dragonstone or some such crap.
     
  17. ulyssesSgrant

    ulyssesSgrant Warlord

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    I just had a very different reaction.

    Like I mentioned before, I read some decent defenses of Arya killing the NK, but it really just came down to was... I didn't like it. It's like I bit into a sandwich and I didn't like the taste. I've tried to explain why, and others can explain why they did like it, but for me it was super unsatisfying. Partly because I didn't think Arya was the right person, but also because the long night just felt... too easy and not that long. Didn't live up to my expectations that had been building for 8 years about the long night or the NK or Jon's and Bran's storylines. Plus it became obvious the NK had to be defeated like 10 minutes before it happens or literally every major character was about to die, so that maybe played a role in my reaction too. So like, there was a lot more packed into the Arya killing the NK scene for me, lots of hopes and ideas came crashing down in that moment.

    I didn't have any expectations for this other scene, it caught me totally off guard in a way that I just accepted, and after discussion it and analyzing it I came up with some justifications for it. There is plenty to complain about... the ambush could have been done better. But ultimately comparing them is difficult to do, they aren't really in the same category of 'moments' for me. Fully understanding my different reactions is hard though. Like, I might be wrong about why I reacted differently.
     
  18. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    It's not rude, because if you actually genuinely believe it, it means you're unable to see the titanic difference between early show and late show, and honestly that's about as insulting as just thinking "okay, he's playing dumb".
    Yes, people going at the places they need to be with seriously distorted distances has always been a staple of the show (it was even mocked in this very forum as early as season 2 or 3), but that's just taken a new life and a new scale since S6, and if it doesn't jump in your face, I don't know what to tell you.

    Just like comparing an actual, in-plot use of magic, detailed and planned (if not really elegant), with a deus ex machina guy whose fleet just appears out of nowhere and fire guided missiles at a dragon that didn't see them coming from his high vantage point, gives the same vibe of either bad faith or just mind-blowing blindness.
     
  19. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Dachs afaik is not saying that the early show (or books) didn't have huge plotholes and convenient goings-on. He is saying they did but that later show seasons (5-8) are even worse.
    Tldr, although Martin has various glaring flaws, he is still clearly a lot better than the show writers.
     
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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