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Game of thrones: Final Season: Winter finally arrives....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    While this may happen, the way they did Jaime's leaving was another subversion if so, cause in the scene he just seems to decide to leave to be with Cercei again (assuming that with only one dragon left Cercei won't be killed and will win the war).
    Going by the prophecy, Cercei will be killed by one of her brothers, which if so has to be Jaime cause Tyrion likely will die earlier in the next ep.
    Of the main characters, unless more SUBVERSION happens, i think only Sansa (and Bran) and (maybe) John will remain (so John will be king).
     
  2. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Sig worthy. Let the church say Amen:please:
    i think Jamie is going to King's Landing to kill Bronn and Cersei... because that is the only way he can save Tyrion.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  3. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I don't think Jamie has a clear intention. He still loves and hates his sister, but she is carrying his child. He said he was only coming to fight the dead and didn't regret the things he'd done before at his trial. I suspect he always intended to go back to Kings Landing and only Brienne briefly diverted him from that. He might still end up killing Cersei if she doesn't have him killed first.
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I tend to agree that he's probably meant to seem conflicted, but I'll maintain that I think a controversy over the parentage (or existence FTM) of Cersei's baby is what will ultimately get her killed.

    The gypsy woman explicitly said she would only bear three children. This baby would make four... so there is no way Cersei survives this child. Maybe she dies in childbirth like her mother when delivering Tyrion... :think: That would be deliciously ironic, while simultaneously fulfilling the prophecy... AND subverting expectations.
     
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  6. civvver

    civvver Warlord

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    I just assumed it was a side of the city we hadn't seen yet. King's landing is pretty far south, the climate didn't seem that off to me. In season 7 when they walk to the dragon pit it looked similar. I guess I'll have to go revisit some outside the city shots like when Jamie flees the city in season 7 and looks back on it, when the dornish show up in season 4 and are greeted outside, or season 2 when the night's watch leaves with Arya.
     
  7. Yeekim

    Yeekim Warlord

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    Well, Martin could have had him choke on a fishbone or something, but magic demon baby is way cooler.
    I'm sure you of all people can think of several instances in history where a general or ruler dies of some stupid, unexpected or mundane reason, causing a similar disintegration.
    Thanks. It indeed makes sense that he would try to save the city (again).
    Him reaching KL in time to do that, however... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  8. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Erm, actually it means that fans of the genre have to make do. It also means they won't like everything they see and some will be annoyed by some things they see on screen. It's perfectly normal and doesn't mean they have to drop the series now and switch to watching romantic dramas.

    Indeed. Sometimes huge fans get allergic to criticism and start responding irrationally. I'm seeing this quite a bit in threads on beloved franchises.
     
  9. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Lenin died of a stroke... pretty mundane... which of course gave way to Stalin. Whether or not that constituted "disintegration", I'll leave to you.
     
  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Alexander died perhaps of cirrhosis of the liver or malaria, and then his would-be successors spent a couple of centuries fighting some of the largest wars of antiquity over the remains of his empire.
     
  11. civvver

    civvver Warlord

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    The mongol invasion of europe basically ended because mongke khan died unexpectedly, probably of dysentery, which led to a civil war between his successors before kublai khan eventually emerged as the victor.
     
  12. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    And all that doesn't count all the guys that WOULD have a huge influence on history but somehow died before they became really famous.

    Napoléon led a charge across a bridge criss-crossed by artillery fire in 1797. A single bullet or shell that would have had a slightly different trajectory, and the whole world history would have had a significantly different one.
    Samely, Alexander the Great was leading an assault on the ramparts of Tyre, early in his campaign. A single stone or arrow would have dramatically altered the world.

    Imagine all the potential conquerors, reformators, leaders and so on that actually were hit by a lethal projectile in such situation and never went to change history.
     
  13. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    I can’t think of anything more mundane than death via magic demon baby.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Plot holes keep multiplying themselves, or how "from one evil a thousand follow":
    Daneyris could just fly with her dragon far above the ships and attack them in that strait from behind. Even assuming the magical ballistae could turn around, they would be hiting their own sails ffs. Dany doesn't do it, for the same masterplan reason Cercei doesn't kill her and her dragon and unsullied with said magical ballistae: cause there is no logic anywhere and plot holes big enough to fit those missing golden company elephants.
     
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  15. civvver

    civvver Warlord

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    Hell it's so confusing with all the english monarchs so I'm probably getting a lot of details wrong, but wasn't war of the roses because some edward or something died and had a weak son? Eventually led to the tudors. And actually many say the political infighting of the real war of the roses is the basis for a lot of game of thrones politics.
     
  16. civvver

    civvver Warlord

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    yeah that kind of makes no sense. If they can't track her side to side well enough to shoot her, there's no way they could track her if she flew straight over them. The ballista can't invert, would have to swing around 180 degrees and then yes she could get low enough behind the deck or masts.
     
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  17. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    You are reading what you want to read in my posts rather than what's actually there, and you're being very rude in the process.

    I don't know why you're trying to create beef with me, but it seems transparently clear that you're doing it.
    His fleet didn't show up out of nowhere. Euron's Iron Fleet has been in the show for a solid two seasons and just last season it wrecked Daenerys' own fleet without being defeated in its turn. I didn't check the leaked stuff, but as soon as we saw a shot of Daenerys' convoy from White Harbor in Episode 4 I immediately asked where Euron was. (A former member of this message board was at the same watch party and could corroborate; he read the spoilers himself and asked me if I'd done the same when I made that comment.) And the existence and effectiveness of the scorpion-windlass-ballista things is hardly news, either; after what happened at the Blackwater it makes sense that Qyburn would order the manufacture of more and maybe improve the design a bit based on experience.

    Daenerys is not a good war leader. She is bad at war in a strategic sense, because she fails to understand that Cersei's regime is painfully weak and that waiting it out would probably force it to collapse. (The showrunners may not understand that, either, although Tyrion makes some of the good and unanswerable arguments for that position. The plan for the fleet to sail separately when the Lannisters still possess a larger and more powerful armada is not very bright, though, and he should take the blame for that.) She's also bad at war in that she doesn't understand battle; she is extremely cavalier with both the forces under her command and with her dragons. She's absurdly cavalier with her dragons in combat or potential combat situations. She understands the awe and fear that they inspire while failing to understand their fragility or their real combat value. It makes her pretty stupid, and it's certainly frustrating that she hasn't learned from her past experiences. But it's not exactly the most unbelievable thing in the world that she'd be careless with her dragons and get ambushed.

    Now, in the show, the ambush was staged as the sort of extra-drama silliness that, well, shows and films love. I, too, was laughing at how a fleet in clear weather could possibly be a surprise to dragons. (Giving Euron bad weather to work with, as he had the previous season, would have made the ambush scene much better.) But there's a difference between saying something was silly and saying that it was not set up. The former is true; I don't think the latter is at all.
    No, it is what I said. It is literally what I said.
    Well, sure, with one caveat.

    Often, the trope of the great conqueror dying "just in time" is employed to heighten drama or to rebuke his failed successors for supposedly being incompetent, rather than being an accurate representation of what might have happened next. Alexander, for example, conquered an empire with such extensive limits that he could barely control it, and his so-called "last plans" or "will" were mostly silliness. It's hard to see what else he could have plausibly conquered afterward. Timur died on the way to invade China, but he was old and decrepit anyway. Gustav Adolf's control over the conquered parts of the Empire was slipping at his death and his ability to keep what he had, let alone go further, was in serious question. You get the idea.

    Assassination plots, for their part, usually only work if the leader is already in the process of failing, making his subordinates dissatisfied with his performance, as for example Perdikkas' assassination during the invasion of Egypt. Motivated bodyguards usually deal with assassins pretty well, and Renly was successful and had a highly motivated bodyguard in his corner.

    But yes. Neither of the above considerations is a "rule" and these things do happen; my favorite example is the murder of Philippos II. War and politics make for rough business; accidents happen and people get mad. That's not the point. The point is that what happens to Renly literally follows Akka's complaint about seasons 7 and 8 word for word:
    The demon assassin baby "magically killed whatever was needed to prevent the logical crushing of Lannister forces when it should [have] happen[ed]". In fact, unlike Euron's fleet, the demon baby was actual magic! It's even more literal than the original quotation!

    I'm not saying that it was impossible that such a thing might have happened to Renly Baratheon. I'm saying that it was done solely to keep the Lannisters alive and heighten the drama, exactly as the introduction of Euron and his fleet has done now. This is why it's good to read the entire context of a discussion, which admittedly is not always one of my strong suits either.

    (And, of course, the mechanism of a demon assassin baby was very silly. At least Euron has an actual fleet. I mean, the fact that he has a fleet is faintly silly, but so is most of the worldbuilding around the Iron Islanders in both the books and the show, so his ability to generate a second fleet from the islands isn't really that bad. The Iron Islands don't really have timber! They shouldn't even have a fleet, not two!...but let all of that go.)

    This is my central, overriding message: the show has changed, and I think that in a lot of ways it has gotten worse, but it hasn't gotten that much worse, and the things people complain about now are often problems that existed earlier in the show. I still enjoy the show, and I have been enjoying it since I started watching it. But I enjoy it because I don't expect it to be much more than HBO vamping, blood, and sex; the show's veneer of high politics and war has never really sustained my suspension of disbelief, not in the first season and not in the last. It has worked for some people, which is fine for them. I don't begrudge them that any more than I assume astrophysicists begrudge me the ability to enjoy Interstellar. Whatever the reason, Game of Thrones' storytelling hasn't really worked for me.

    What I am saying here to some of the people disappointed in the most recent seasons, basically, is "join the club".
     
  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Then again it beggars belief that a fleet would not bother to send scouting ships. And i am sure you recall that in the last season Euron surprised (lol) the larger Highgarden/Dorne fleet, because the latter not only didn't have any scouts but was sailing in a MASSIVE STRAIGHT LINE. That isn't just unfortunate or some lack of planning; it is impossible to buy that no one in a fleet had heard of how stupid it would be to sail like this. And from the books it is known that some kind of naval strategy planning existed in the old, pre-show ( ;) ) days, eg with Stannis vs the Ironborn rebellion.
    Re the ballistae, there are just too many impossible things there. But ultimatelly even if one accepts they are super stout and can fire hundreds of meters above and wreck everything, they still are placed on ships which were next to each other in a dense group between two islands; ie those ships cannot just turn and face the opposite direction. So why didn't Dany just fly behind them so as to kill everyone?

    That said, yes, i agree that the show always had some serious issues, but probably they were more dispersed because back then there were plots that didn't need them so much, while the last 2+ seasons the show writers are trying to bring this to an end so they produced all manner of problematic plots and irrational developments. Magic Renley killer is strange, but at least that was clearly about magic, not about non-magic which was presented in an entirely unrealistic way.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  19. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Nobody ever does reconnaissance in fictional properties. Either they know exactly where the other guys are going to be despite not doing reconnaissance...or they have no idea and battles just kind of, uh, happen when armies and/or fleets bump into each other.

    It was silly when Tywin Lannister got completely surprised in season 1, and it's silly now, but it's just a thing that happens in fiction. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    She's not particularly smart, she's bad in high-stress situations, and making that calculation in the middle of combat is not exactly the easiest thing in the world. "Just" is doing a lot of work there. You might find that unbelievable, but I didn't mind it that much.
     
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Even the persians in 300 did some reconnaissance ^_^

    And that is in a movie that has orks, goblins with scythes as arms and even a sitar-playing Baphomet.

     

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