Game Preference Poll

Which type of game would you prefer to play?


  • Total voters
    51
Birdjaguar said:
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever asked the question before so this was the first time that he answered it.
You said he might deny the same opportunity to others while granting it to you if demand is too high. That is the very definition of preferential treatment. Again, I don't particularly care what he does or does not do because it is tangential to my point of this being a bad idea in either circumstance.

I think you are over reacting. There is nothing that I can do to destroy this forum or the activity of NESing. This forum will only go away when the players stop having fun and let rancor and peevishness take over.
I think you underestimate the fragility of this forum. We have a more or less temporally consistent number of individuals playing, averaging between 45 and 60. Of those, at most half could be said to be moderately engaged. So, 22 to 30 or so. That is an exceedingly small number of people. Most of them do not read every topic. Indeed, there are several players who only pay attention to topics in their subscription list, and never even notice new, different topics.

Now what do you suppose will happen if all of a sudden information is increasingly pocketed up into tiny little enclaves that require special access to view? Balkanization. Degeneration into cliques. People won't be communicating quite so much anymore. New people will not be able to view information without signing on not knowing what it is they're looking at. What does that result in? Declination in activity, declination in interpersonal communication, declination in new arrivals, declination in outside interest due to unobservability. Net result after a prolonged time: forum death. Old users get bored and drop out of games, new ones can't see them.

Now, it is true, this is assuming a worst case scenario. Maybe Thunderfall does just only grant this to you. Maybe he grants it to everybody and few people choose to use it. But people tend to behave like sheep and enjoy mimicking trends. They also like gadgets. And a lot of the time, they like secrecy too. That's why we use PMs, after all. So there's fairly decent odds that if everybody had access to this sort of thing, a fair number of them would use it. And we don't need everyone hiding information to tip us into a downward cycle of user growth. We don't even need half the people to do it. An eighth (a quarter of a half) of the people--about 5 to 7, if they were moderators--would be quite enough, considering only about that many people moderate at a given time. Maybe even half of them. So just 2 to 4.

Now maybe he just gives it to you. Just you. Says no to everybody else. Great, doomsday averted. Why can't the rest of us use it? Again, preferential treatment. I wouldn't be happy with that simply on principle. Guess who everybody would be mad at then? You and him, probably. What was that you just said about rancor and peevishness?

Do you begin to see why this is something of a bad idea? One fork leads to potential excessive compartmentalization of information. The other fork leads to a general increase in bitterness and resentment. Maybe, just maybe, some path could be taken here where microforums are implemented and neither of these happens, or only happens to a certain degree.

But why take the risk? Why expend the effort when there are simpler solutions? Why think about walking on a razor blade?

I don't generally oppose things on the possibility of abuse. I think USA PATRIOT Act is fine, and National ID Cards are OK because our government would be too incompetent to abuse them (and already has those capabilities if it really wants to have them anyway). But this one I do oppose on the possibility of abuse, because it is incompetence that would lead to that abuse. Giving somebody a gun that's too complex for them to shoot themselves with is fine. Giving somebody a gun that's exceedingly easy for them to shoot themselves with is really bad.

They said the same thing about personal computers on 1980.
False analogy. Personal computers decentralize data reception and input capabilities allowing more users to participate in a network. Microforums centralize data reception and input capabilities and reduce user interaction by concealing information and tightening access to it. Different end result, comparison is invalid.
 
Gotta agree with Symph. When you first mentioned the password protected forum idea, I was somewhat intrigued by its mystery, but further thought has revealed to me it is a potentially disastrous idea. As Symphy said, it opens the floodgates for considerable weakening of the forum, and I fear the precedent it sets could lead to our little corner of the forum's extinction.
 
I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this

False analogy. Personal computers decentralize data reception and input capabilities allowing more users to participate in a network. Microforums centralize data reception and input capabilities and reduce user interaction by concealing information and tightening access to it. Different end result, comparison is invalid.
The analogy was not that pcs are serve in a similar fashion as sub fora in regards to information, but a recollection and generalization based on experience that many people naturally shy away from what is new and different and over attribute risk because of fear.
 
Would you rather have army stats that separate out mounted troops from Infantry, Levies and UUS or just have army stats for standing army, levies and UUs. In the latter case, players would have to designate their army make up (how many infantry and mounted troops) each turn.

I think mounted should be seperate from infantry, though doing things das-style would be fine too.

@Sym- I don't think many of us would be bitter, I don't think that many people would want to use the subforum system. Regardless, I remain against the creation of private subfora.
 
I like the idea in theory, but being in BirdNES has convinced me otherwise.

There were around 10 new NESers that lurked and started playing. In private sub-forums, it would be impossible to get that lurking and joining thing going. It would change the game a lot, as Abaddon and other of the new players impacted the game a lot, in various ;) ways.
 
On the 'Cultural Cradle' issue

In my limited thought, I can honestly see how what has been argued would work in favor. Common linguistics, mythologies, cultures, etc would make the Cradle all nice and pretty, put what true good would it do? The only thing comming from these "discussions" is a headache and alot of arguements. For instance, take in fact that there will only be three cradles- yet there are an infinite number of cultures that can be developed. For instance, you can take Andean, Amazonian, Indian, Chinese, Greek, Celtic, Egyptian, Nubian, Sumer/Urian, Scythian, etc. How in the world is anyone going to succeed in organizing only three Cradles where the majority follow the same (general) religion? What happens when the oddball gets ganged up against in each cradle, know's he'll continue to get ganged upon against, and is in general unhappy with the entire way it went? What about the un-avoidable steppe nations? Will it be thrown into an Asian-istic Cradle just because of associations with otl, or will there be enough divurgence to allow for individualism?

I can understand that the Cradles will nto be entirely based on otl (even through the number of requests for "celtic" lines), but what I'm trying to argue against is the way people will try to rule these discussions iron-fisted. Already there has been discussions of penalties for individualism- since when would creativity be a punishable offence? As a final protest against this, I must point out that no matter what, you will always have an oddball. Rather alex and the asians/ Swiss and his Aztecs*, or Thy and his Valins, cultures will always be unique- and the countries they belong. Cultures, and religions in particular, do not spring up out of the ground as they do in general NESing (I know this goes against what I tend to do). Rather, they're obviously built upon the remnants of previous cultures that rose and fell, and all those cultures you so lovingly pointed out are examples of this.

Rather than dividing a Cradle culturally, I'd suggest dividing it regionally. For instance, in one Cradle, there could be two dominant cultures, one located along the west of the map, and the other along the east region. Any person starting a nation along these general regions should take that mainstay of that region, and keep to the code established by the organizers of that culture. They should abide by linguistic, they should abide by the main faith (through they should have some freedom in choosing a sect if existing), and they should abide by the general aspects of the region- if the people are warmongeirng horse-lovers, then don't be a pacafist naval-trade state.

Where the nations of the two cultures meet (say between two bordering nations), it would be assumed that the player could take either side, embrace both, or neither. A general mixing of the cultures would exists, and you couldn't expect a singularity in anything (allowing a middle nation a great move variety than the fringes). The second (or even third) culture would exist on the other side(s), and the farther away from where the two cultures meet, the more stricter it would become (to a natural limit where new cultures could develop).

If anything, there should be a general (through not enforced) agreeance on the type of faith in a region (not a Cradle). It is in these smaller communities that I believe the ideas proposed by LB could work while preventing any major arguements/ annoyances.

And yes, the reason I'm making this more complicated is because I'd be on of the ones moaning about being grouped with others.

EDIT: I forgot a few things:

The *- By Aztecs, I am at a lost to describe the Bladiest culture as anything but that. I believe Iggy once used it, so I'll just follow the leader. Anyway, but that line I meant that LINES II is a great example of what could happen if people follow the established predecent. In the very beginning, when 3/4s of the cultures developed in Tellus (the main northern continent I'm referring to nwo), there was little regionalism. Odd culture existed by odd culture, and there were no problems with it. For instance, Khermi existed right side-by-side with a Asiatic (I believe Iggy classified it as that) culture, Gorin (I think it was African through I'm not sure), an unique nation (at least I don't know of any crystal worshippers in OTL), and a Romanish/Greek nation. Yet, when these nations came along, all of a sudden it was a crime to be unique- why should it make a difference that there were whites below Guangfei? Maybe they lived north but were driven south by the Asianitic tribes from the now-prestent region of Yathai (I believe the region is now an asiatic sphere. I might be wrong.)

My point is that long after a culture is put into place, it exists. Latter on, reasoning can be derived for its existence, but for now, let it be.
 
The idea of multiple cultural groups in a cradle is a very good one... an excellent and realistic compromise between a total free-for all and total conformity.
 
I'd just be incrediably annoyed if I do the work in fleshing out this culture and I get ganged-up against by a bunch of Celtic-wannabes, Roman-wannabes, and Asian-wannabes :p.
 
He can object if he wishes. Not like I haven't heard the whole "Chinese=pwnage" speech, say, 300 times before :).
 
Of course! What is there in Asia that is worthy of China? China is the center of Asia, the rest of Asia isn't worth much! My nations are CHINESE, not "Asian" *continues Pro-Chinese rambling* Though I do admit I borrow quite freely with other aspects I like; like sushi... Darkening, you've signed your own death warrant... :p

Personally speaking, I would like to say "peoples" tend to become more different over distance so there should be somewhat "gradual" changes than polar opposites (the steppes and China don't count)
 
Of course! What is there in Asia that is worthy of China? China is the center of Asia, the rest of Asia isn't worth much! My nations are CHINESE, not "Asian" *continues Pro-Chinese rambling* Though I do admit I borrow quite freely with other aspects I like; like sushi... Darkening, you've signed your own death warrant... :p

Personally speaking, I would like to say "peoples" tend to become more different over distance so there should be somewhat "gradual" changes than polar opposites (the steppes and China don't count)

Go away. Either be all-Chinese or cease your silly Chinese pride immediately. Sushi? Shame on you.
 
Says the Chinese guy who's a Japanese wannabe :p
 
Lots to think about here. :)
 
Wasn't it already decided to use spoilers instead? It would lead to more or less the same intended effects (if the players actually care to honour them; I probably won't, as the arguments in favour of hiding cradle information still strike me as very weak; but in any case I can't see it causing any particular harm, unlike the sub-foras), and would be far easier.

I must point out that no matter what, you will always have an oddball.

Well, who's going to prevent *that*? I believe this is pretty much what we have been discussing with LittleBoots just now.

Rather than dividing a Cradle culturally, I'd suggest dividing it regionally. For instance, in one Cradle, there could be two dominant cultures, one located along the west of the map, and the other along the east region. Any person starting a nation along these general regions should take that mainstay of that region, and keep to the code established by the organizers of that culture. They should abide by linguistic, they should abide by the main faith (through they should have some freedom in choosing a sect if existing), and they should abide by the general aspects of the region- if the people are warmongeirng horse-lovers, then don't be a pacafist naval-trade state.

Actually, that sounds like a good idea, but you aren't going far enough. Why just two cultures? Far better to divide every cradle into some basic geographical regions (like the Pontic-Caspian Steppe), and write up short descriptions for those regions, including both geographic ("steppe, minor grasslands") and cultural ("warlike, but fairly sophisticated nomad tribes, with fresh migrations from the east"; maybe also add something about them being Indo-European, or, in our case, some previously agreed-upon equivalent) information. Players will be required to roughly adhere to this basic cultural setup - as much as they would be required to do so in a regular NES. Still, they could try and build a tribal confederacy with a strong emphasis on commerce and a gradually developing urban culture, or they could take charge of a smaller, but tighly-knit and ferocious horde that will then go on a rampage. And so on.

Sure, it's more work for the mod, but we will be there to help, no? ;)

Lots to think about here.

Any replies to the technology suggestion?
 
I have ideas coming later but i needed to pipe in and say

NOT AZTECS:gripe:
 
I think there should be separate threads for each cradle, though only honour system and a request from the mod should keep people from looking at other cradles.
 
I am not trying to stifle creativity at all. I am, however, trying to do exactly what you're saying. Cultures are built on the ones that came before, not in a vacuum. Given that cultures have a fairly impressive (read: ridiculous) lifespan in NESes, its hard to look at cultural family trees because most seem to have sprung up out of the ground more or less fully formed. All I'm trying to do is place a backdrop to cultures to show relationships between cultures.

From what I understand, your main point Darkening (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you would rather not have three dominant culture groups and would rather we started in smaller areas. Before continuing the discussion, I would like to point out that in OTL, we have Indo-Europeans (and Semitics, although these two seem to have mixed quite a bit), Africans, Asiatics, and indigenous Americans (or whats left of them); this can be argued, but more or less all cultures come from these dominant groups. As long as groups are related at some level, I'll be okay. I'm just tired of random cultures with no relationship to one another (thus my distantly related Gerougians in LINES).

I'll address your other points after a little food. Good ideas though!
 
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