Gauntlet Suggestions

I was looking at the following Ad Hoc query and was surprised to see nothing but cheese (yes I am in there, from a previous gauntlet!):

Spoiler :


Let's remedy that!

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Deity
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Pangaea
  • Speed: Normal
  • Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
  • Must not be checked: Permanent Alliances, OCC, no barbarians
  • Civ: Viking
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: 3.19.003
 
I was looking at the following Ad Hoc query and was surprised to see nothing but cheese (yes I am in there, from a previous gauntlet!):

Spoiler :


Let's remedy that!

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Deity
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Pangaea
  • Speed: Normal
  • Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
  • Must not be checked: Permanent Alliances, OCC, no barbarians
  • Civ: Viking
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: 3.19.003

First all calling games "cheese" is not fair to the players of those games, since were they simply complying with the settings of that old gauntlet which is mainly what your Ad Hoc query lists.

The settings you suggest seem to be just another kind of "cheese". You don't seem to like a peaceful game with PA allowed and OCC required.

Games that require an early rush and luck executing it seem to be cheeser than the games you are objecting to.

Can someone please explain what cheesy games are? Seems to me that the primary definition is any game that demonstrates more skill than luck. At Deity level, early rushes are more about luck than skill or simply rerolling enough to get a good date.

To be clear, what you seem to want is cheeser than the games you seem to be objecting to.

Finally, my apologies for using the terms "cheese", "cheeser", and "cheesy". I believe more neutral terms/phrases like "challenge", "more challenging", "different challenge" could be used to explain the goal(s) of the proposed gauntlet without insulting the games of previous gauntlets. I typically do not use the term "cheese" on CFC, because I believe it is unecessarily derogatory and hurtful to players of games that have been classified by others as "cheese". I have never seen a positive use of this term and hope that fellow CFC members would voluntarily refrain from its use.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Can someone please explain what cheesy games are? Seems to me that the primary definition is any game that demonstrates more skill than luck. At Deity level, early rushes are more about luck than skill or simply rerolling enough to get a good date.

I believe he is referring to the PA mechanic. While it's true that you won't beat a truly good finish time simply by using PA against opponents who also use it and play much better, it *does* allow one to rather easily win with settings that would otherwise be extremely difficulty for most to manage. It is trivial to 1) select against culture AIs, 2) do nothing all game but butter diplo and avoid dying, 3) PA the tech-leader AI and let it do all the work. You won't get a competitive time, but you'll get a W, and especially in a "challenger" series with a bonus for completing all games, it trivializes using deity difficulty in the first place.

I agree with you on the "cheesing" terminology though. While I often like to claim I'm cheesing because its funny (and my youtube following likes me abusing the AI of various games), it's not cool to cheapen games/victories that were attained with valid settings within constraints.

I don't mind his proposed settings though. It would be legit challenging, but far less annoying than, say, playing OCC on noble and going for :culture: victory. Ideally the difficulty in "challenger" is the difficulty of either winning or competing with other contestants...not difficulty based in "tedium" lol.
 
It might be time to retire Civ IV gauntlets and concentrate on V. Recent entries have been low. Why have yet another major with one entry? A person doesn't need a gauntlet for that.
 
^
V gauntlets are outdrawing IV gauntlets. IV is looking like it is no longer worth the effort.
 
^
V gauntlets are outdrawing IV gauntlets. IV is looking like it is no longer worth the effort.

V's HoF rules are excessively convoluted and indefensible. At least IV took a reasonable approach to how it allows/doesn't allow things, even if there were some mistakes made.

IMO get out with this "potential exploits need be checked ahead of time" and grandfathered submission nonsense.

All of that before the reality that civ V has less depth than IV and has even more technical problems to boot, and before the objective interpretation of "civ V sucks".
 
V's HoF rules are excessively convoluted and indefensible. At least IV took a reasonable approach to how it allows/doesn't allow things, even if there were some mistakes made.

IMO get out with this "potential exploits need be checked ahead of time" and grandfathered submission nonsense.

All of that before the reality that civ V has less depth than IV and has even more technical problems to boot, and before the objective interpretation of "civ V sucks".
???
This hasn't stopped the sun in the sky from moving. Twilight has come.
 
Civ V is a failed experiment. The 1UPT system in the game virtually destroyed every other interrelated system in the game.

The low gauntlet turn out is due to Civ IV Deity being an extreme challenge (meaning few are able to meet the challenge), some didn't like the settings and possibility that some players were distracted by other pursuits or simply didn't have enough time to complete a game.

There have been previous Civ IV Deity gauntlets with no entries, but that certainly did not signal the demise of the competition.

I may not be entirely happy with Civ IV HoF, but I will certainly play Civ IV games as opposed to Civ V. Even if the Civ V HoF would require simple, sensible rules as opposed to what they have now, I would still have absolutely no interest in the hopeless broken game that Civ V is and is doomed to remain. The only way to fix it is remove 1UPT and it's effect so pervasive that it would require a complete re-write to fix, which essentially means Civ VI (as WastinTime implied).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I don't think Firaxis will return to stacks since they get enough money from Civ V as is (it is pretty obvious because they prepare 2nd expansion, they wouldn't do it with failed game - failed in the sense of return of investment).

And their new target audience loves 1upt...

I don't have high hopes about Civ VI... I think we need to wait for some Indie company to make Kickstarter civ with better managed stacks
 
I don't play V either but the low gauntlet turnout for IV is across-the-board. The last 3 updates for V vs IV have had submission totals: 88 to 37; 64 to 29 and 169 to 49. The "failed experiment" is leaving IV in the dust. The screenshot by shulec above indicates a gauntlet has already been done. Another one struck me as dated, yesterday's news.
 
I don't play V either but the low gauntlet turnout for IV is across-the-board. The last 3 updates for V vs IV have had submission totals: 88 to 37; 64 to 29 and 169 to 49. The "failed experiment" is leaving IV in the dust. The screenshot by shulec above indicates a gauntlet has already been done. Another one struck me as dated, yesterday's news.

People buy and appreciate shoddy products all the time, and will even go so far as to defend the flaws as not existing. Civ V is a great example; it was a broken game with nigh-unplayable (literally) multiplayer for over a year, and people defended it rabidly. It still has serious engine and UI issues and to this day Firaxis still lies about the specifications required to play the content. Some people do care about this, but they get lost on CFC after they ask for help improving game performance and can't. Some keep playing after that, and some don't. If you start pointing out objective reasons TBS shouldn't take so long between turns or how other games handle 3d rendering laughably better, people get upset but have no answer for it. I could do that argument and corner people for years, but it wouldn't make a difference; failaxis laid the foundation for how civ V would work even in civ IV's patch history.

I knew the moment I saw Civ V's engine that it was screwed as a "competently coded" AAA title. However, the community screwed any chance of a quality game in the future and thus submarined the playability of modern TBS to me by happily accepting an awful engine with sloppy coding where cities will switch tiles worked IBT and starve you or units with the UI displaying "attack" instead move. People were fine with that, and thus the masses took one of my favorite game genres away from me. Yes, I'm bitter over that and very much so. Civ V disappeared off my steam, and it took me a while to even notice. Even if it hadn't, I probably wouldn't play it much if at all. I'm certainly not going to reward that disastrous programming work with actual money; such things need to be earned. This is happening in too many of the genres and series I enjoy, which only adds to my frustration. Gears of War and civilization have both tanked as franchises in terms of the quality of games they put out, and hard. Madden has been in a valley for years as they falsely advertise realism then completely eschew any effort to deliver that. None of my friends play Starcraft 2, but at least that's still a good game!

Civ V as a game is still a joke directly. While Civ V HoF went down a horrible path that essentially guaranteed we couldn't see legit competition, it would have struggled in some capacity even if there were a sensible basis for rules that was consistently followed. The end conclusion of that discussion was: "we're doing it our way, and we don't care if that isn't consistent with our own model or that we can't support our rulings with any logical basis", and there's not a lot I can do to argue with that. If that's what players are happy with, I have no choice but to ignore it for what it is and let people who enjoy that nonsense have their fun.

You are correct that interest in an old game will gradually decline. Regardless, Civ V should be considered irrelevant when it comes to the decision on when to stop Civ IV HoF. It's really a question of whether the staff feels HoF participation in IV is high enough. Using the "civ V is more popular" line of reasoning is no more sensible than using the "Starcraft 2 is more popular" or "Call of Duty is more popular" line of reasoning.
 
You are correct that interest in an old game will gradually decline. Regardless, Civ V should be considered irrelevant when it comes to the decision on when to stop Civ IV HoF. It's really a question of whether the staff feels HoF participation in IV is high enough. Using the "civ V is more popular" line of reasoning is no more sensible than using the "Starcraft 2 is more popular" or "Call of Duty is more popular" line of reasoning.
I wasn't suggesting stopping the civ iv HoF. I was suggesting that civ iv gauntlets may have run their course. Perhaps gauntlets should take on a more indefinite objective. For instance, achieving a 5 million point game on prince or 10 million on deity.
 
I don't think Firaxis will return to stacks since they get enough money from Civ V as is (it is pretty obvious because they prepare 2nd expansion, they wouldn't do it with failed game - failed in the sense of return of investment).

And their new target audience loves 1upt...

I don't have high hopes about Civ VI... I think we need to wait for some Indie company to make Kickstarter civ with better managed stacks

You may be right, but consider that the lead designer of Civ V left the company a few months after its first very buggy release. He has since publicly admitted that 1UPT was a big mistake and impacted several other game subsystems negatively. He is now trying to "player" fund another game he is designing with a programmer friend. I doubt he will ever get another lead designer position with a big name gaming company.

Civ IV was a huge fanancial success too, but it also delivered a game with unlimited replayability. Probably only a few of the best players have explored it in all its dimensions. People will still be playing it ten years after its first release, since it is by a clear margin the best of the series so far.

Civ V probably has animation improvements and has "fixed" a few design issues that Civ IV still suffers from, but they broke the game with the 1UPT requirement. The Civ V espionage system is joke compared to Civ IV's espionage system. The Civ V AI is pathetically weak. The game provides the players with little challenge; that may be why many new players like it so much; they can win high dificulty level games without much strategy and with a rather low level of 1UPT tactical skill.

All things considered, I have no doubt that the developers realize that Civ V is a techinically poor game. They are lucky that Civ V is selling well enough to finance Civ VI. They will not make the 1UPT mistake with Civ VI. It will likely be a design better than Civ IV. Better than Civ V is almost certain.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I wish I had your faith in the technical soundness of a sequel. We've seen a lot of poor games in that regard lately, including several in a row from Firaxis.

It starts with the engine, and that decision is made at very early stages.
 
I wish I had your faith in the technical soundness of a sequel. We've seen a lot of poor games in that regard lately, including several in a row from Firaxis.

It starts with the engine, and that decision is made at very early stages.

Well, considering how long Firaxis strung out their Civ V failure, they must have a lot of yes men and nonexistant quality assurance. That they persisted in bringing such a broken game to market and "bought" good-excellent reviews from professional reviewers is definitely cause for concern. You may be right that 1UPT has permanently destroyed the Civilization series. However, I just can't believe they would risk making another 1UPT Civilization incarnation (Civ V). Fool me once (1UPT Civ V), shame on you; fool me twice (1UPT Civ VI), shame on me.

I will not buy Civ VI, if it is based on 1UPT and its horrid traffic jams and lame AIs.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Well, considering how long Firaxis strung out their Civ V failure, they must have a lot of yes men and nonexistant quality assurance. That they persisted in bringing such a broken game to market and "bought" good-excellent reviews from professional reviewers is definitely cause for concern. You may be right that 1UPT has permanently destroyed the Civilization series. However, I just can't believe they would risk making another 1UPT Civilization incarnation (Civ V). Fool me once (1UPT Civ V), shame on you; fool me twice (1UPT Civ VI), shame on me.

I will not buy Civ VI, if it is based on 1UPT and its horrid traffic jams and lame AIs.

Sun Tzu Wu

in mine opinion you have to accept the fact that the market just shifted... and developer won't go back...

it's the same like we would whine about PC stagnation and market shifting towards mobile and console gaming... it's just a fact that the gaming scene grew so much that they want to play like everyone and can you imagine your wife playing Civ IV or Civ V if she had to choose? It's easy to see why Civ V is more today's market oriented...

I am just so glad you mentioned Jon Shafer and the 'at the gates' game... it's kinda exactly the perfect example I had in mind when talking about some Indie developer making civ successor... he is on the right way imo to make good civ successor game...
the reason why I think it's so is, that he already made the bad decisions and shifted towards more civ iv design with adjustments... actually the firaxis devs that stayed in firaxis are the ones that didn't made the same shift from the design philosophy!

it would be totally unexpected to see THEM making CIV VI based on the philosophy shift that Jon Shafer already did... I just can't see this happen

and you mentioning he won't ever get job on big companies just promotes my point that firaxis won't shift from 1upt away...it's too big of a selling point now...
 
I will not buy Civ VI, if it is based on 1UPT and its horrid traffic jams and lame AIs.

It isn't 1upt that really ruined civ V though, it was the implementation of it. Shafer touched on that in his article a bit actually. If you're going to use 1upt, you need more hexes. A lot more hexes, like 3-4x as many with the same levels of production. You'd have to completely redo the scaling of the maps.

But because they insisted on 3d rendering everything, and couldn't even do THAT efficiently, machines couldn't handle something like that. Heck, playing on "minimum" specs in civ V is a complete joke; half the game's content is nigh unplayable. There is major performance difficulty on a significant portion of the game's content even with "recommended" specs or better across the board. Now, if you combined their joke engine with 3-5 times as many hexes? They wouldn't even be able to sell it to most players, who wouldn't have the hardware to play the game.

Firaxis' trouble in civ IV and V when it comes to engine, UI, and performance are all *project management* failures, and bad ones. Civ V dropped its UI team before/around release IIRC, and even today it takes more inputs to do the same things in V as it did in IV, and IV is often inefficient! On top of that, you'd see job postings for people who could program the game's multiplayer...after the game was released. These things point to profound project management failure, which trumps design failure and of course contributes to it (it's hard to design a well thought-out game balanced around each aspect of play when you can't even get some of it working and are pathetically engine-limited).

I won't buy civ VI unless I see evidence of a profound turnaround or a new company making it. 1UPT won't bother me if I can youtube the game and see that it's working properly and can actually *fit* those units.

it would be totally unexpected to see THEM making CIV VI based on the philosophy shift that Jon Shafer already did... I just can't see this happen

No matter what design philosophy you choose or where you go with a title, it is still important to make it a technically sound title with a solid engine and balanced play. Civ V has less depth than IV, but it still had potential for great depth and play experience. Too bad that potential got undermined before the game even went into its alpha versions. It's the current market trend of "sell shoddy products on consumers who don't realize it or don't care" that's causing far more damage than "market to casual players" in the strict sense. Civ V could have been the exact same game, except with much better release balance, better performance, more hexes to move in, and a strong/balanced MP experience and it would have been a significantly better-received title even than it was.

Instead, they paid Game Informer to lie to us.

Instead, it was a buggy pile of crap with an awful engine. Many of the bugs are gone, but the engine limitations will hold it back forever.

My only hope for civ VI is that failaxis picks up some legendary project manager to lead its design. Otherwise, the trend of technically bad games released won't end. In their culture, they don't even care that the game will log a "time played" of 1 hours and 30 minutes when the player was actually sitting there for over 3 hours (IE more time spent waiting than playing).
 
Thank you vranasm and TheMeInTeam for your recent well taken opinions/analysis.

vranasm, I'm not entirely convinced that the market wants 1UPT and all that it implies, but I must concede that you are most likely correct about the general gaming public liking it better than Stacks of Doom. I do like the fact that in Civ V, combat doesn't always result in a unit killed. With Civ IV, this only happens with mounted/woodsman 3 withdrawal or BTS seige.

TheMeInTeam, you are absolutely right that management ruined Civ V. Shafer probably wanted to make pervasive changes to fix the 1UPT aspects of the game more properly and was probably asked to leave as a result. Civ V may have been more properly fixed, if Shafer was given the chance.

Well, I've had my final say on this topic in this thread. I really don't have much more to add to it anyway.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu
 
TheMeInTeam, you are absolutely right that management ruined Civ V. Shafer probably wanted to make pervasive changes to fix the 1UPT aspects of the game more properly and was probably asked to leave as a result. Civ V may have been more properly fixed, if Shafer was given the chance.

I have to say that in the business sense it wouldn't have been a good idea to retain Shafer, even if he could have improved the game ("fixing" major engine difficulties/limitations would be nigh-impossible, and suddenly allowing stacks would have forced a complete re-design). It is unlikely that Civ V new purchases would have approached that of a new game after major revamping, and they'd need that level of business to justify the cost. It is also dubious because you'd have the same programming/design team that made many of the mistakes in the first place, and it's unlikely that they'd see eye-to-eye in a remake, leading to a jumbled mess on par with how bad the game was anyway.

That's the tough thing with game design; you're given a budget and a timeframe, and the margin for error usually isn't that great. Once you've dumped a shoddy project into consumers' laps, it doesn't make much financial sense to alter the product if they're buying anyway, even if end sales might be just slightly higher. However, repeated instances of bad products cause popularity to falter over longer times. Civ is the most popular TBS right now, however that wasn't always the case. HOMM III was much better than its contemporary civ title (they couldn't sustain greatness either), and so were the warlords games by SSG (II was good, Warlords III was one of the better TBS ever too, then IV dropped considerably).

In a way, I can't blame the company for selling DLC while completely neglecting a pathetic UI. You deliver what sells. I just find it sucky to me personally that enough people buy that I have no chance at seeing a good UI in a civ game short of playing Kardoc's mod (even HoF mod doesn't fix the issues with shift/alt/control click selection, waypointed units moving into suicide danger, or being able to DoW w/o prompt because the game "thinks" you're holding alt...it also doesn't do anything about the promotion buttons moving about a second AFTER unit selection, possibly causing you to click combat I and instead auto-explore). That sold and sold, so they never fixed it in BTS, left even worse garbage in civ V (ranged attack = move and don't attack, IBT governor changes tiles and starves you), and sold it. People ate it up, and so I and others who prefer competently put-together games suffer.

Firaxis will eventually get trampled by somebody competent if they can't do their project management the right way. TBS has hit an unfortunate void in terms of strong releases...but all it would take is for one great new franchise to emerge with high depth and replayability, that does the technical issues properly and civ would plummet. I don't know when it will happen, because balancing your personnel and design ideals with cost, timing, and practicality realities is no small feat, but it will happen eventually.
 
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