GEM Stage 1: Terrain

[Thalassicus]

I would start by including Faith and possibly espionage in random events mod.

It might be necessary to make some changes to the "triggers" folder of the unofficial patch to do espionage events, and possibly for faith as well. Firaxis made the smart choice of including faith and culture in the yields table, so those are much easier now, but espionage would definitely require new code. Anyway, it's all on github so take a look around.

 

[Thalassicus]

I've posted the beta test version of this stage on civfanatics here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16617

Like the major redesign of the project I did last summer, this will probably not work right away. It's the first time I've attempted a project spanning multiple mods. Please be patient while we work out any kinks with the beta test. Click here to post bug reports.

 

[Thalassicus]

There's an improvement between VEM and GEM I forgot to mention in the release notes.

I added a check to hopefully ensure strategic resources are on the map. Some unusual maps like "true start location" scenarios don't have player territories, so the mod's territorial resource placement does not work. If that happens, it should now fall back to the vanilla system, and use the default placement methods to drop strategic resources. I set up the vanilla system to use more & smaller deposits of resources, like the mod (2 deposits of 2 iron instead of 1 deposit of 6 iron).

• Most GEM maps: considers player locations, and drops many small deposits.
• Unusual GEM maps: ignores player locations, and drops many small deposits.
• Vanilla/expansion: ignores player locations, and drops a few huge deposits.

 

[Tery Buster]

Should I send modded files to thalassicus@hotmail.com or do you have another email?

 

[Thalassicus]

Yes, that is my email for this project.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm investigating resource placement in GEM. How do feel about the results below?

Based on discussions earlier we reached a 50%/150% compromise for G&K Enhanced, compared to VEM's 100% system. Each player territory gets between 50%-150% of the resources needed to field a viable force of units in our army. This increases the likelihood of games where the Mongols cannot build horses, or Rome does not have legions.

• VEM: 5 units of iron per territory. Half are in hard to reach locations like islands, citystates, or settled by rivals. This means players could typically get 2 swordsmen in the early game.
• GEM: 3-8 units of iron per territory. We divide by half like before, so players can typically get 1-4 swords per game. One sword is probably not enough to invest in, so some games will have no swords. Other games will have armies of swords.
• Firaxis: does not place resources by territory, and varies between 0 to much more than we need.

These numbers rise when we conquer territory. Controlling 2 player territories typically doubles the number of strategic resources we have access to. The average quantity of resources per territory is still 100% = (50+150)/2, same as before.

I've started several test maps with the new numbers. In an 8 player GEM map I got:

Resources per Player -
Iron....:     5.3
Horse...:     2.8
Coal....:      -  (depends on land area for cities, not # players)
Oil.....:     3.9
Aluminum:     4.6
Uranium.:     2.7

In VEM the numbers would always be:

STRATEGIC Resources -
Iron....:     5
Horse...:     4
Coal....:     -
Oil.....:     4
Aluminum:     6
Uranium.:     3

This map randomly got slightly more iron than usual, and somewhat less horses and aluminum. Most players got about 100% of the resources they need to use each type of strategic unit effectively.

Some players got down to 50% of resources. Spain got 2 iron instead of 5:

Other players get up to 50% more than they need. Washington got 8 iron instead of 5:

 

[Thibaulthc]

I like that
are the total quantities smaller than in GK?
I'm playing a huge emperor map, and I have like 60 oil, 40 coals, 60 alu, 20 uraniums, and, ok only 10 iron (I have the autocracy politics, so all my worked resources are doubled (OP btw)
most of my conquest were aiming strategic resources , especially oil, but it still seems to be a lot ?

 

[glider1]

Thanks Thal. I downloaded beta-1/cleared the cache etc and ran GEM alongside CivUP as two independent mods. The attached file is the log and a screenshot of some problems on all settings standard on a standard continents map at turn 1.

I do have a question. When I debug terrain by hitting ~ and "reveal all", resources on the map that were in the fog of war are still invisible even after clicking "reveal all" and so I cannot help to debug resource placements at the moment. I've had this problem from day one.

Cheers

 

[Thalassicus]

On the tuner's "active player" tab, advance to the information era. That does two things: 1) reveals all resources and 2) reveals the whole map, since the satellites tech reveals the map.

I'm not sure what's going on in your game. The log states it cannot find a function from civup, yet that function is found and runs okay on my computer, with the same code. I don't know what might cause that discrepancy between your copy and mine. I'll have to think about this for a while.

Could you post a screenshot of your /mods folder?

 

[Ahriman]

Based on discussions earlier we reached a 50%/150% compromise for G&K Enhanced, compared to VEM's 100% system. Each player territory gets between 50%-150% of the resources needed to field a viable force of units in our army. This increases the likelihood of games where the Mongols cannot build horses, or Rome does not have legions.
VEM: 5 units of iron per territory. Half are in hard to reach locations like islands, citystates, or settled by rivals. This means players could typically get 2 swordsmen in the early game.
GEM: 3-8 units of iron per territory. We divide by half like before, so players can typically get 1-4 swords per game. One sword is probably not enough to invest in, so some games will have no swords. Other games will have armies of swords.

This is my bias, but I think 50-150% + the variation from might be rival territory/city state/inaccessible is too much. I hate having a game where I can't build any legions as Rome, or any Keshiks as Mongolia. 2 or 3 iron most of the time sounds fine; having only 1 iron 25% of the time sounds frustrating.

Can I make another plug also for onshore vs offshore oil? In previous versions I think the balance favored offshore too much, probably because of the limitations of terrain placement (every zone have coasts, many are light on desert or marsh or tundra). Could we let oil show up in jungle zones? [I'd also tend to lean towards making jungles less valuable; historically jungle was nearly as much of a downer to civilization as tundra or desert. I'd like to see jungle as more of an impediment, like it was in previous versions of Civ.]

 

[glider1]

Damn I deleted the setup but will try to replicate Thal. The mod folder structure was:

\Mods\Civ V Unofficial Patch (GK) (v 19)
\Mods\g_k_enhanced_mod__beta___v_1
\Mods\InfoAddict (v 18)

Really appreciate you taking modding into new territory Thal by allowing mods to coexist yet use each others functions in a dependency arrangement spectacular stuff. It means that you can build the mod that you love, yet others can still have some simple controls to alter it.

On another topic, does GEM allow this type of game strategy using concentrations of luxuries?.....

Last night I started an Emperor game on base G&K as the Germans. The start position was on the coast but with 3 truffles immediately around the capital. Siam was south and nobody north. I decided to let Siam expand towards me on the assumption that he would be non-aggressive and a trading partner. I expanded to 3 cities northwards on good spots (marble/incense). Siam rapidly expanded 1 city towards me for the other truffle resource and 4 cities away from me and then DOWED.

Because I had spread wide rather than tall, I was down on military capacity. HOWEVER I had my truffles and just a tiny army! So I sold my truffles off to distant friends for enough cash to buy me a quick defense of archers. By incredible luck a militaristic civ was impressed by me, we became friends and he started to give me spearmen to help me out against that Siamese cat

Cheers

EDIT: I guess the problem with large quantities of duplicate luxuries around a capital, is that if the player manages to conquer just one other civ, the huge bounty of resources around their capital means it's game over and settled right there, which is actually not good. However it hasn't actually broken the game in my experience yet

 

[mystikx21]

Random non-bug to minor points to bring up.

1) Coast is +1 /Ocean -1 and defence values are altered. None of that is surprising and both were apparently unobjectionable. Given that they were debated or previously announced.
1a) Several other VEM changes are in there (whales/pearls +1 , wheat +1 on farm rather than on wheat, forest chop 30 , and villages as +1 ). Again, not an objection here, just clarifying and cataloging any actual changes from vanilla GK for new initiates.

I will try to keep a tab on these as it goes along if no one else wants to volunteer a complete list, spelling out the tech/tile changes to various resources, improvements, and GP improvements for example. Some kind of "civilopedia" amendments would be useful in my view to make simple references for discussion or changes for balance as needed.

I have a tentative list of these for terrain changes so far assembled here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AeudKJcGF01VGD_OcY9PjRw6OxB0QYcRnsKR4fL5Cnk/edit

2) Natural wonder balance changes for tiles were also inserted. GK natural wonders (unchanged) however still have two that provide happiness (Sri Pada, Mt Kailash, 2 each) are otherwise unchanged, though mostly balanced in vanilla. Mt Fuji also loses its 3 modifier in reverting to VEM values. Low priority changes to update GK additions.

3) Text for citadels correctly reflects the 30 damage but forts still says 1 HP in civilopedia and on tile improving (XML seems right says 10 HP).

4) Doing anything different for polders/moai/terrace farms? That can wait until leaders modifications. Moai looks reverted back to vanilla for now.

5) Salt/Citrus/Crab still provide +1 /+1 , giving advantages over and above other resources (should just be +1 food with gold on mine or plantation? or vice versa?). Copper/Truffles should be correct with others.

 

[Thibaulthc]

if I may suggest:
Delta improvements (river between city and sea) +, +
and maybe, anything that'd improve plains for (ie small workshop, +1)

 

[Thalassicus]

This is my bias, but I think 50-150% + the variation from might be rival territory/city state/inaccessible is too much. I hate having a game where I can't build any legions as Rome, or any Keshiks as Mongolia.

I agree, but I want to at least try out the idea.

@mystikx21
The coast, resource, and natural wonder changes are intended. However, the village +1 was not. I intended to delay the village adjustments until the Cities stage, since that's where it fits in with other yield changes. I thought I commented the terrain folder change out. I'll do so for the next release.

I intend to set up a wiki for mod documentation in the near future. I wanted to do it on the Civ 5 wiki, but it's been broken for some time. I'll correct Mt Fuji's faith. Thanks for bringing that up! Unique improvements for leaders are altered in the leaders component of the mod.

I'm looking over the resource distribution for the new luxuries:

[table="Resources"]Resource|Basic|Improved|Building|Terrain (high to low priority)
Copper|||-|open hills, covered hills, dry open grass, flat tundra
Salt|| mine|-| open plains, open desert, tundra, floodplains
Citrus|| plantation|-| flat jungle, hill jungle, non-tundra flat forest, floodplains
Shrooms|| camp|-| non-tundra flat forest, flat jungle, marsh, covered hills[/table]
​

Based on this and other considerations, the GEM yields for these resources could be:

[table="Resources"]Resource|Basic|Improved|Building|Terrain (unchanged)
Copper|| mine| mint|open hills, covered hills, dry open grass, flat tundra
Salt|| mine| market |open plains, open desert, tundra, floodplains
Citrus|| plantation| market|flat jungle, hill jungle, non-tundra flat forest, floodplains
Shrooms|| camp| market|non-tundra flat forest, flat jungle, marsh, covered hills[/table]
​

Note these are resource bonuses, and do not include yields from terrain or improvements on the tile.

Edit: revised from suggestions below.

 

[Thalassicus]

I could have been positive I went through the long process of merging the G&K changes into the mod's copy of AssignStartingPlots.lua... but looking at the file now, I don't see those changes. This is troubling... hm...

Edit: I see now what happened... the file I updated was elsewhere, due to some difficulty I encountered when splitting civup from gem into two mods. Updating that to G&K code as intended will make a big difference for map generation. I'll include it in the next Gem update.

 

[Tery Buster]

Salt should give money when improved with a mine.
I guess no population will grow from mined salt...

 

[mystikx21]

I agree, but I want to at least try out the idea.

@mystikx21
The coast, resource, and natural wonder changes are intended. However, the village +1 was not. I intended to delay the village adjustments until the Cities stage, since that's where it fits in with other yield changes. I thought I commented the terrain folder change out. I'll do so for the next release.

I intend to set up a wiki for mod documentation in the near future. I wanted to do it on the Civ 5 wiki, but it's been broken for some time. I'll correct Mt Fuji's faith. Thanks for bringing that up! Unique improvements for leaders are altered in the leaders component of the mod.

What yields would you recommend for salt and citrus? Each resource has three stages:

• Unimproved
• Improved
• Building

I had assumed most of those changes were intended (and the village one was to be delayed but would be in eventually). I'll try to keep track of them as it goes for documenting it later or to catch things that are getting overlooked.

Moai I assumed could wait until Polynesia gets changed. I don't see a huge need to change the polder or the terrace farms much.

Throwing these up for debate:
Fuji gets 3 faith in base GK, we could make it that instead of gold or make it a 3/3/3 (gold/culture/faith)?
Any of these could be interchanged really, food bonus coming on improvement for example, with gold straight off. I like salt getting food immediately, citrus I'm ambivalent.
Salt
+1
+mine, +1
Improved by mint to add +1 , plus the market +1 .
Salt was very valuable as a trade good mostly.
Citrus
+1 base
Plantation +1
Improved by granary +1 , market +1 . If it's possible, I'd add another +1 from harbors to these to reflect its naval trade goods status instead of the food from granary.
Crab
+1 base
Boat +1
Improved by lighthouse +1 , harbor/seaport, +1 / market +1 . Should be a low production good like fish vs whales/pearls

Also, copper would get +1 mine, +1 from forge and the +1 from markets.
Truffles +1 from camp/market and +1 from stables.

 

[mitsho]

The on salt is to improve the plain tiles, no? So that neds to stay

I'd would like Fuji to stay without Faith, there's already a few of these faith wonders, not? And a high culture natural wonder can be very powerful as well...

 

[mystikx21]

The on salt is to improve the plain tiles, no? So that neds to stay

I'd would like Fuji to stay without Faith, there's already a few of these faith wonders, not? And a high culture natural wonder can be very powerful as well...

Fuji could have 6 Culture and 3 faith. I don't mind it having faith. Kailesh and Sri Pada both have happiness, both of those could add culture instead.

In reflection.
I'd go with
Salt as +2 , +1 (+Mine), food, food, gold
Crab +2 , +1 (+ Boat), food, gold, food
Citrus +1 , +2 (+Plantation), gold, food, gold
Truffles +1 , +2 (+Camp), gold, food, gold
Copper +1 , +2 (+Mine), gold, prod, gold

Also, Porcelain and Jewelry should get +1 from markets. Possibly some other +1 add on too.

 

[Thalassicus]

The planned resource bonuses on buildings are:

Building | Theme | +1 | Resources
Granary|grains||wheat, sugar, spice
Lighthouse|fishing||fish
Stable|livestock||horse, ivory, sheep, cows, deer
Seaport|seafood||fish, whale, crab, pearls
Furnace|steel||iron, coal
Stoneworks|sculpture||marble, stone
Market|exotic cuisine||porcelain, salt, citrus, truffles, bananas
Mint|currency||copper, silver, gold, gems
Circus|performers||horse, ivory
Amphitheater|costumes||cotton, furs, silk, dye, jewelry
Temple|rituals||wine, incense

By the way, you can click the "forum tables" link in my sig to see how to use tables.

Edit: added the missing lines for Ampitheater and Stoneworks.