General Politics Three: But what is left/right?

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, but I think one still mostly can't say that--say it using that term, I mean.

At work, about a year ago, a woman did something that required real cojones. That's how I thought it to myself, but not how I said it to her.

 

[Farm Boy]

Didn't think "balls" was particularly rude. Made clear with a smile for anyone that was going to extend any grace in the conversation in the first place. If not, they were always going to circle back for you eventually anyways?

 

[Gori the Grey]

Not rude, I don't think. But one can't cancel out of it the inherent sexism that Sommer pointed out: that it is the testicularly-endowed gender that is assumed to have courage.

 

[Lexicus]

It's gendered in a way that a lot of people are sensitive to. I think it's a bit like saying "that's mighty white of you", which has largely fallen out of use for analogous (and obvious) reasons.

 

[Farm Boy]

I guess, I've decided I'm too old to care. At that point, like I said, they'll find something. They can have it. I'll just judge back.

Fighting a no-win situation isn't worth my life-time. There are plenty of those built in already.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I know girls with bigger balls than me. It's not necessarily a compliment, but it might be.

Of course it can be meant, (and taken/received) as a compliment. That does not change that it's sexist. Lots of common sayings are and/or can be meant and taken as compliments despite being inherently prejudicial and/or potentially offensive.

My point was not to condemn people for using the expression "balls" in general. The original point I was making was the irony of Rep. Mace saying something inherently sexist, and intentionally insultingly so, towards someone else, then immediately accusing someone else of being sexist towards her.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yeah. I guess amongst the things I give a "poopie doopy" about, that doesn't make the list nor the potential offense.

I'm learning what "beneath contempt" actually means, I guess!

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah. I guess amongst the things I give a "poopie doopy" about, that doesn't make the list nor the potential offense.

Not in this era where our very synapses are being murdered!

 

[Farm Boy]

Get thee behind, I think it goes. It's freeing.

 

[Smellincoffee]

It's gendered in a way that a lot of people are sensitive to. I think it's a bit like saying "that's mighty white of you", which has largely fallen out of use for analogous (and obvious) reasons.

I have literally never heard that phrase outside of novels in which the author (Harry Turtledove) was using it to trigger values dissonance. And for the record, I'm a white boy born in an Alabama trailer park...

 

[Birdjaguar]

I have literally never heard that phrase outside of novels in which the author (Harry Turtledove) was using it to trigger values dissonance. And for the record, I'm a white boy born in an Alabama trailer park...

"That's white of you" was very common in my youth (50s and 60s). It was not a complement.

 

[Sommerswerd]

"That's white of you" was very common in my youth (50s and 60s). It was not a complement.

I always thought it was sort of accusing someone of virtue signaling, having a martyr/savior complex, being like "Miss Millie" in The Color Purple, or something along those lines.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I always thought it was sort of accusing someone of virtue signaling, having a martyr/savior complex, being like "Miss Millie" in The Color Purple, or something along those lines.

The usual context was sarcastic and indicating that the spoken to was being unusually "good, or acting beneficial" when they typically were not. They are acting "white." The dual meaning of "white" here is decidedly racist.

 

[amadeus]

I say “family jewels” which is the funniest and therefore best option.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

The usual context was sarcastic and indicating that the spoken to was being unusually "good, or acting beneficial" when they typically were not. They are acting "white." The dual meaning of "white" here is decidedly racist.

I never realised it was sarcastic. Though maybe it's an American thing? Whenever I've come upon it in writing I took it to mean that the speaker was complimenting or thanking the person. In the context of something like someone taking on the blame to save someone else, or someone agreeing to look pass a mistake

 

[Smellincoffee]

"That's white of you" was very common in my youth (50s and 60s). It was not a complement.

Would depend on context, though. Turtledove would use the expression between white characters in an appreciative context -- "You fixed my flat? Mighty white of ya", whereas black friends of mine growing up were sometimes accused of 'acting white' because they took school seriously. Of course, a similar contempt exists with rednecks -- I was bookish and actively tried to speak with proper grammer, so I was teased about wanting to grow up to run around with "doctors and lawyers". Now I sit on boards with doctors and lawyers. Is that in the neighborhood of what you were meaning?

 

[Gori the Grey]

Here's how the OED tries to capture its usage in this sense:

colloquial (originally U.S.). Honourable; square-dealing. Also as adv. Now somewhat rare and generally regarded as offensive.
Cf. white man n. 3.
In origin probably chiefly reflecting racial and cultural stereotypes formerly associated with European descent (and hence implying contrast with people of other races), although perhaps partly informed also by sense A.II.7a.

The II.7a is:

Morally or spiritually pure; stainless, spotless, innocent.

The earliest witness they've found is 1873.

So they're making the call that racism is inherent: "that's awfully honorable of you, you know, the way we White people tend to be. (unlike the people of some other races that I could name, but won't, because I've effectively already done so through the adjective I have chosen."

 

[Farm Boy]

So it's like "noble." Which should be fighting words, but language is dumb like that.

 

[Lexicus]

I have literally never heard that phrase outside of novels in which the author (Harry Turtledove) was using it to trigger values dissonance. And for the record, I'm a white boy born in an Alabama trailer park...

You've never heard it because it's a very old phrase that was already being used ironically in the 50s and 60s:

"That's white of you" was very common in my youth (50s and 60s). It was not a complement.

Incidentally, I also learned about it from Harry Turtledove novels, but he didn't make it up.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Would depend on context, though. Turtledove would use the expression between white characters in an appreciative context -- "You fixed my flat? Mighty white of ya", whereas black friends of mine growing up were sometimes accused of 'acting white' because they took school seriously. Of course, a similar contempt exists with rednecks -- I was bookish and actively tried to speak with proper grammer, so I was teased about wanting to grow up to run around with "doctors and lawyers". Now I sit on boards with doctors and lawyers. Is that in the neighborhood of what you were meaning?

Here's how the OED tries to capture its usage in this sense:



The II.7a is:



The earliest witness they've found is 1873.

So they're making the call that racism is inherent: "that's awfully honorable of you, you know, the way we White people tend to be. (unlike the people of some other races that I could name, but won't, because I've effectively already done so through the adjective I have chosen."

You've never heard it because it's a very old phrase that was already being used ironically in the 50s and 60s:


Incidentally, I also learned about it from Harry Turtledove novels, but he didn't make it up.

It was never a compliment in my youthful world. My friends were all white and saying it to them was a backhanded way of saying: "What's up, you are being nice now?" I'm guessing that there were regional variations in how it was used.