amadeus
Apply directly to the forehead
He’s not a conservative.
General Politics Three: But what is left/right?
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And left-leaning posters aren't the derogatory term he decided to rely on, but here we are
I'm not clutching my pearls, right? Live and let live a bit.
EgonSpengler
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I recall in 2000 going to see Ralph Nader speak. He opened his talk by saying "Let me tell you a few things about our next President" and then rattled off a whole list of things that would be true, or that wouldn't change, whether George W. Bush or Al Gore was elected. I can't remember any of his bullet-points now, but I remember that everything he said made sense, and I was nodding in agreement with almost everything he said.
And then September 11th happened, and in response, our whole country went [flipping] insane and the Bush Administration launched a war with Iraq, apropos of nothing. Probably Al Gore would've sent troops into Afghanistan. But Iraq? Unless Gore has said so in the years since, I don't think he would've invaded Iraq.
So if you ever notice me rolling my eyes and brushing off people who claim it doesn't matter who we vote for, this is why.
And let me just cut off anyone who wants to start flapping their gums about me letting the Dems off the hook. I'm not and I never have. It was before I was on this site, but in the handful of election cycles after 2003, I told anyone who would listen - and probably quite a few who weren't listening
- that they should look up the members of Congress who voted for the invasion and vote them out of office, regardless of which party they want to support (I mean, I'd have preferred that people elect Democrats, but baby-steps...). I also resented having Hilary Clinton shoved down my throat. I was thrilled to be able to vote against her in the 2008 primary, and was aggravated that I had to do it again in 2016. (I mean, WTH is wrong with the Democratic Party? We don't want Hilary Clinton. Hello? Is this thing on?) I remember chatting with a friend in 2015 and saying, "If Clinton gets the nomination, I don't know what I'm going to do." Then Donald Trump made my decision super easy. I guess I can thank him for resolving that conundrum for me, if nothing else.x36,784*
* That's the number of Americans killed and wounded in Iraq, according to NBC News. If someone wants to use the number of Iraqis killed instead, good luck, there doesn't seem to be an agreed-upon figure yet. If you wanted to get into the economic costs of the war, that's also still unsettled, but everyone seems to agree it's north of a trillion dollars, just for the United States. The 2008 book by Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes, in which they tried to project out the ultimate cost of the invasion of Iraq to the U.S., was titled The Three Trillion Dollar War. And that was years before the emergence of ISIS, to name just one aftershock. I don't know if they've revised their estimate in the last ~15 years, but if they have, I doubt it went down.
EDIT: I forgot, that 36,784 also doesn't count the 30,000 veterans who served after 9/11 who've committed suicide (30,000 as of a study published in 2021, so it's got to be more than that now). That number would include those who served in Afghanistan and elsewhere, not just Iraq, but obviously a lot of them must have served in Iraq. I think people who were on active duty during those years had a good chance of being deployed to both theaters at some point. I remember being at an anti-war rally in 2003-2004 (there were maybe 200 people there) and somebody driving past shouted "Support the troops!" We responded by shouting, "We are!" I don't know if that guy was shouting in solidarity with us, or if he thought he was rebuking us. If it was the latter, I wonder if he and people like him ever came to understand what we meant, or if they still think supporting our troops means sending them to war. Literally the other day I heard a story on the radio about veterans struggling to get their VA medical benefits (because, among other things, they have to prove that their medical problems were actually incurred during their term of service - I guess they don't just get healthcare as payment for having served the country). You want to support the troops? Voting for socialized healthcare would be a place to start.
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No, they're not. But they don't necessarily come from the same place, even if they have much the same conclusions.
Gori the Grey
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I don't know your reference, Farm Boy, but as a separate matter, I saw yesterday that overall rates of suicide have come down for the first time in five years.
EgonSpengler
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It depends what you mean. It's been in the news for years, so in that one sense, people have been 'paying attention to it' for a little while now. But if you mean, is something actually being done about it, I guess I don't know. The story I heard on the radio the other day about veterans having to fight to get their VA medical benefits was not specifically about mental healthcare, but if a guy couldn't get his back injury covered, I doubt it's any easier to get treated for PTSD or alcoholism, or whatever. A guy I knew in high school is involved in treating soldiers' mental health, but he's US Army, not Veterans Affairs. My understanding is that the two are separate (maybe that's part of the problem, I dunno).
A big test we haven't really faced yet will be when the electorate and/or Congress is asked by some President to sign off on sending our military into action somewhere. One of my great disappointment in '03 was the deafening silence on the part of the generation before mine, who had gone through the whole Vietnam debacle. Not just them, mind you - when I tried to get my peers to join me at anti-war protests, it was like pulling teeth* - but I thought at least the generation who'd seen that movie before wouldn't have been so [flipping] gullible. We frankly suck at learning lessons. Vietnam wasn't even the first time the American public bought into a war that didn't need fighting. I'm sure it'll happen again, someday.
* So much so, in fact, that I genuinely started wondering how many of them actually supported the war and didn't have the [flipping] [stones] to say so.
Lexicus
Deity
<enormous amusement>
That ain't the take, that's just spin. And you wonder why the sympathy is limited in the interpersonal.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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No, it's been quite explicit. But you don't read, man.
Bonyduck Campersang
Staring into the distance
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Israel's existence does jack all for anyone 'out there', in fact it has very much the opposite effect by acting the way it does while hiding behind the veneer of a liberal and progressive democracy
Moderator Action: This is not the Israel /Hamas war thread.
Lexicus
Deity
I'm enormously amused by you only pretending to care about the issue of suicide when it can be used to attack liberals or cities, or to defend the unequal apportionment of power in the US Constitution. If you actually gave a crap about suicide among veterans then you'd want to do something about handguns, but you've already said you consider essentially any number of deaths an acceptable price for gun rights so who exactly are you trying to kid?
You say I don't. That doesn't mean I don't. In fact, a pretty good barometer of the opposite
But hey. Look out for the self, right? As soon as it becomes demographics, and party apparatus, it's always Republicans better, Democrats worse. And you say others don't care? Pull the other one, hah.
sophie
Break My Heart
it’s not tho. because of the thing i just said.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Ok, so it's not better over there because it's about USA politics and chauvinism.I'm not the one going on about "white saviours" as I profess my ignorance to the concrete military aid the US provides to Israel
EDIT - but whoops, yeah, this is much better over there!
It is tho, because it is tho. Maybe do a tour? You can start in Riyadh in finish in Tel Aviv. Lmk how it goes, and which one doesn't oppress half the people within its territorial control. Then let me know whose the most politically free and progressive with its other half.
Narz
keeping it real
Yeah it's a trend he embodies, also alienation of allies and then is confused by why said alienation occurs and assumes malice (leading to more hatred), it's such a vicious cycle and affected so many 'progressives' I sometimes wonder if it's some sort of right wing psy-op.
No lgbt person would ever actually want to live in a Palestinian state (or any islamist nation) or seriously thinks they'd have more freedom and safety there than in Israel. This is not to necessarily condone all of Israel's military actions but as a place to live, a Palestinian state vs Israel? It's not even a question.
Conservative continues to agree with a conservative, no surprises here.
Unlike this quote or the post it quotes, this ain't a personal attack, unless you consider being called a label common to the right half of any political spectrum an attack. To which I'd ask: why?
My point here is that to progressives, or "progressives", this critique is pointless. It has no impact. It's a soundbite. Conservative media personalities employ it on the regular. It's been deconstructed more times than I can count. Which demonstrates the lack of a point of doing it here. It won't be read, will it @Farm Boy? At least not in any way that leads to it being internalised.
This in particular isn't about US politics, and the point you're making is so intertwined with defense of Israel as a state it feels tricky to engage with.
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