General Politics Three: But what is left/right?

[Lexicus]

Oh ok Boneyduck only that we're saying the USA bears responsibility for Israel and "someone" should dissolve it.

Like if the USA stopped supporting Israel it would dissolve itself. Wat.

It seems clear from the context that schlaufuchs means "in an ideal world Israel would dissolve itself", I certainly didn't read that as a call for the US to dissolve Israel (how would that even work?)

It's in Israel's own interest to stop being an exclusionary ethnostate but they're apparently going down the route that's going to end with their fascist dictator shooting himself in a bunker in the ruins of Jersualem as IRGC tanks close in overhead

 

[Lexicus]

Then they play a lot of video games and smoke a lot of weed, where you get to constantly hallucinate that you are God.

Hook me up with this strain, the weed I smoke just makes me appreciate the shape of trees and clouds and stuff

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, I guess I was going with the Civ Game vibe. Would we prefer "civilization altering godlike powers?"

Otherwise, I just know practically everything's a hybrid these days even if it says it isn't and check the TCHA, some of that Big American Ag refined and synthetic product packs a punch. Really good for slowing down decisions you need to not rush, like deciding which way that pretty tree shape is going to fell. That's a decision you might only get to make wrong once.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm afraid I think amadeus has got it right, here, @Sommerswerd. (amadeus DESTROYS Sommer!). Mahr is talking about our sources of news; Mahr doesn't pretend to be that.

Mahr most certainly "pretends" to be news... just because he is also doing comedy doesn't mean he isn't doing news-type programming, particularly when his segments are intentionally hyper focused on politics and social issues. Mahr isn't doing stand-up or rom-coms or a sit-com. He isn't even doing a Che/Jost SNL comedic-skit news-spoof. He is operating in a very specific genre, that is akin to the late-night shows which offer news, with comedy interspersed. Mahr doesn't get to hide behind the "Oh I'm just doing comedy" excuse, anymore than Hannity gets to hide behind "Oh I'm just offering editorial/opinion". The show is formatted like news, with social/political information, analysis and commentary.

His criticism is accurate on a lot of points, especially that bit about news sources that give the impression that the POTUS is in charge of everything that happens everywhere in the world.

The "accuracy" of his criticism doesn't change the irony of his critique in the face of the title of his video. I thought he wasn't news BTW. Is he to be taken seriously or not? He (you) can't have it both ways. Either Mahr is a clown engaged in fluff, to be laughed at and not taken seriously, or he is making serious commentary with a comedic flair to it. If we were to ask Mahr candidly which... I'm guessing he intends/desires to be seen as the latter.

The insights he offers are nothing profound.

Indeed.

He's making fun of clickbait titles while using a clickbait title which is a good way to bait

Exactly. Therein lies the irony. He is, exactly what he condemns... and he does this kind of thing all the time.

 

[Hygro]

The ideal world does not exist. In the idea world, everything is different. In the real world with all of the real actors, what is the best course for reachable changes based on what exists? In the USA we have 200+ years of mostly making it more democratic, iteratively, often with big fights.

Patriarchal gangster states are as old as specialization of labor. And they were so progressively bad that we had to reinvent Freedom™ (now with written arguments!) We don't win by removing flawed attempts at this first thinking it will fall into place. We win by making the flawed ones better. If there are moments to reset and try again, they come, but reactionaries win when the revolutionaries seek to go to war first and win second.

The electoral college has literally and exactly failed its one job, to keep a deleterious demagogue outsider outside. Maybe we can work to swing a few states into signing that accord.

Then get some better judges.

And start working on the next big upgrade like expanding the house or making the Senate a Parliamentary feature rather than Terra-ocracy.

 

[Farm Boy]

Those do sound like political tools to grease resource extraction and consumption further.

 

[Hygro]

I mean, there's an argument for primitivism and it's not trivial. All of civilization is that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Civ 6 is a race to destroy and borg every tile available, right?

Like the iPad commercial. Or "to unify" from the other thread.

Consuming isn't even of the vertebrate mind.

 

[Hygro]

There's just no halfway point that isn't "well this is what I know so let's stop here." Granted, only here exists. But still, priorities are all over the map and the collective will keeps it moving in one direction. But I'd like to make the process better and save where we can live savage and clear. No one said it can't be both.

 

[Lexicus]

In the real world with all of the real actors, what is the best course for reachable changes based on what exists?

Something like "hey Israel if you keep committing crimes against humanity we're gonna cut you off" and not "hey Israel we're gonna keep funding your military regardless of what crimes you're doing because you're the Only Democracy in the Middle-East(tm)"

 

[Gorbles]

When I expressed vulnerability, I was called "glib." Then I realized vulnerability is absolutely the wrong thing to show a lot, here.

Two wrongs most definitely make a right. Good show old chap.

Time doesn't go backward, so no.

But if we're destroying countries for being horrible, surely there's a less disordered order.

Order is contextual. Thousands of dead civilians killed by munitions supplied overwhelmingly by the US (to the extent that the UK government are defending themselves by invoking the fact the US sends the lion's share) is "context".

Pretending that colonialism is in any way "democratic" is part of the problem. To keep that focused on the US, it's exactly as Lexi said. Actually stop funding Israel. Instead of Biden just repeatedly saying something in the hope people will believe him (just like Roe all over again).

Really is like a grim facsimile of a Blackadder sketch, or maybe Python. They're being very naughty boys (and girls), eh?

 

[Farm Boy]

Good show old chap.

<punches you in the shoulder> That's the spirit!

 

[Hygro]

Something like "hey Israel if you keep committing crimes against humanity we're gonna cut you off" and not "hey Israel we're gonna keep funding your military regardless of what crimes you're doing because you're the Only Democracy in the Middle-East(tm)"

And if that just means they stay the same to Palestine but are now Team Second World?

Or if we can't get aid to Ukraine because of our own compromised situation without continuing to supply Israel?

Because Team Second world is everything we don't like about ourselves and then a lot more. And if they win, they win.

Biden's slapping tariffs on Crezth's favorite genocidal superpower. It's new news. And tariffs on their export-oriented tech industries they need to grow to have a shot.

It's complex. I would in a vacuum cut military aid the same as you would but we're not in a vacuum.

 

[Lexicus]

And if that just means they stay the same to Palestine but are now Team Second World?

Or if we can't get aid to Ukraine because of our own compromised situation without continuing to supply Israel?

Because Team Second world is everything we don't like about ourselves and then a lot more. And if they win, they win.

Biden's slapping tariffs on Crezth's favorite genocidal superpower. It's new news. And tariffs on their export-oriented tech industries they need to grow to have a shot.

It's complex. I would in a vacuum cut military aid the same as you would but we're not in a vacuum.

I am curious, is the "US and its allies are better than the Second World" an axiom or is there an amount of mass murder the US and its allies can do that would make that no longer true?

We need to give Hitler the weapons he needs to defend Europe from Soviet Communism. It's complex.

 

[Cutlass]

Now we're going to pay attention to suicide rates in the demographics of the people who volunteer to serve?

Remember when Boener and the GOP Congress shut down the government to force Obama to cut VA spending?

Good times....

 

[Hygro]

I am curious, is the "US and its allies are better than the Second World" an axiom or is there an amount of mass murder the US and its allies can do that would make that no longer true?

We need to give Hitler the weapons he needs to defend Europe from Soviet Communism. It's complex.

We fought Hitler and then we fought the Soviets, in the order that made sense. Still fighting the Soviets. Does not make sense to give them Israel.

Fortunately it isn't that simple.

And I know you know it isn't that simple. I don't think you think this is about body count. Let's ask it differently:

If 70% of people wanted America to be fascistic and cruel, and 30% to be free and fair, and they suddenly fought to the death, who should win?

 

[Farm Boy]

Ah, Orangey. Wonder if he goes out with Hillary?

But yeah, I still find the selective cut of caring about the total slab of meat at play, amusing.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Mahr most certainly "pretends" to be news... just because he is also doing comedy doesn't mean he isn't doing news-type programming

I don't watch Mahr specifically, but in this general kind of show (Jon Stewart I did used to watch), the reference to current events is there solely to set up the joke.

Either Mahr is a clown engaged in fluff, to be laughed at and not taken seriously, or he is making serious commentary with a comedic flair to it

This is a false binary. One can use humor to make serious points. I do it all the time with my limericks here, which are simultaneously hilarious and incisive (and based on the news without pretending to report the news). Why, you yourself (the Sommal you) are sometimes funny and insightful at the same time.

Don't make me bust out a limerick on you.

Cronkite told us the way that things are.
Later, Carson was all "har, har har."
Somm may say we need less
Of such sport; I confess
I incline to the view we need Mahr.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Daniel Perry: Texas pardons US soldier who shot Black Lives Matter protester​

Texas Governor Greg Abbott has pardoned a man convicted of killing a Black Lives Matter protester in 2020.
Daniel Perry, an ex-US Army sergeant, was moonlighting as an Uber driver in Austin when he turned on to a street where demonstrators were marching.
Garrett Foster, one of the protesters, approached the vehicle carrying a rifle. Perry shot him dead.
Perry said he acted in self-defence, but he was convicted by a jury and sentenced to 25 years in prison.
Foster, 28, a former US Air Force mechanic, was openly carrying an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle - something that is legal under Texas law - at the time of the confrontation on 25 July 2020. He was white, as is Perry.
Perry had no passenger in his taxi and said some of the demonstrators, who had gathered in the wake of the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota, began banging on his car. The protesters said they feared the vehicle might ram them.
During the trial, Perry's lawyers argued that Foster raised his rifle, a claim that some witnesses disputed. Perry lowered his window and shot Foster five times with a .357 revolver before driving off. He called 911 shortly afterwards.

The case became a rallying point for conservatives and Governor Abbott previously said he would pardon Perry as soon as he received an official request. Perry was convicted of murder in April 2023.
In announcing the pardon on Thursday, the Republican governor said that the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles had conducted an "exhaustive review" of the case and Perry's personal history.
"Texas has one of the strongest 'Stand Your Ground' laws of self-defence that cannot be nullified by a jury or a progressive District Attorney," Governor Abbott said in a statement, referring to Travis County District Attorney Jose Garza, a Democrat.
"Stand your ground" laws generally permit an individual to use force, including deadly, against someone if they believe that person is about to commit murder or other serious crimes.
In a statement Mr Garza said: "The Board and the Governor have put their politics over justice and made a mockery of our legal system. They should be ashamed of themselves."
According to court documents, Perry began searching for the locations of Black Lives Matter protests weeks before the shooting and messaged friends on social media, comparing protesters to "a bunch of monkeys flinging [expletive] at a zoo".
In May 2020, shortly after Floyd's death, he sent a text message saying: "I might go to Dallas to shoot looters."

He also sent messages about "hunting Muslims" and about killing a daughter if she had a crush on "a little negro boy".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-69013312

 

[Lexicus]

We fought Hitler and then we fought the Soviets, in the order that made sense. Still fighting the Soviets. Does not make sense to give them Israel.

I think one can draw a pretty straight line from Cold War anti-communism to the fact that Donald Trump is now poised to end liberal democracy in the US.

Also, speaking of "realism", China is probably too smart to accept the strategic costs of allying with Israel.

And I know you know it isn't that simple. I don't think you think this is about body count. Let's ask it differently:

It's not about body count, it's about values, values like "mass murder is bad"

Or is it about something else? Maybe it's about the self-interest of being inside the circle of "civilization" where the liberal West has decided mass-murder is bad. If it's about that, I confess my own sympathies lie with the people outside the circle, who just sort of get mass-murdered in the passive voice, very regrettably but inevitably.