[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Imaus]

Personally speaking, recognizing that racism is one of many ways to oppress the underclass and then deciding that the issue of racism can be ignored appears to be a self-defeating proposition. As long as society remains divided, there can be no hope for solidarity needed to defend progress made from the forces of reaction. This necessitates an anti-racist stance, as submitting to its continued existence only causes further division that weaken solidarity and reform resolve.

Considering BLM appears to have done more to weaken police power—another arm of capitalist oppression—in a course of three months than the DSA or whatever in anything for the past three decades I know which way I should be standing for leftist solidarity too.

That does have to be considered. Old Left is Old Left for a reason, I guess.

 

[Berzerker]

Using the word 'peaceful' even with qualifiers to describe CHAZ is pie in the sky. Six shot and 2 dead in 24 days is a small sample size but I'll bet thats far more violence than the 24 days before CHAZ.

 

[Estebonrober]

Using the word 'peaceful' even with qualifiers to describe CHAZ is pie in the sky. Six shot and 2 dead in 24 days is a small sample size but I'll bet thats far more violence than the 24 days before CHAZ.

Yes, but what purpose does politicizing it fulfill? I'm willing to take it for granted that this is significantly more than normal (although I could not find anything on this because the press is really enjoying the moment it gets to prop up the prison state we've built here (largely with the help of the sensationalist media)), but it was not protest related at all. It seems from what I could find it was teenage and maybe gang related. Two things on that front. First it obviously was not protest related other than maybe opportunistic and second with a murder solve rate of about 50% these days its not like the police is that good at doing anything about this stuff. Lets not bring up rape case solving, the other most important violent crime, its far more abominable (hint: the police don't even care). Frankly after watching this for forty years it is becoming abundantly clear to me that the leftist were right about the police this whole entire time. Their only real purpose seems to be to oppress the poor working class for the benefit of the rich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault

Foucault goes into why this is in pretty good depth. I mean after all why is when someone bilks millions from thousands of people that is far less of a crime (usually ending in a fine) than say robbing a bank of thousands?

 

[Estebonrober]

Those are the functions of the state, said Anthony, adding, “I’m tired of babysitting. We are not against social workers, counselors, the fire department. We are against racist, crooked cops.” He said they escorted out sexual assaulters and spent hours finding support for those having mental health crises. Volunteers had to talk down a man threatening to jump from a rooftop.

https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/seattle-chop-zone-police/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=theintercept&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3VnxpDrnLVDsaWXlS7btsugA_iPK2juYTQvNZSl4M6eXk-9ddOhPER9jw

A more nuanced take on what happened to the CHOP.

 

[Berzerker]

Charlamagne tha God said LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act after MLK was assassinated

 

[r16]

and no need to gloat on the "failure" of the "anti-capitalist" experiment either . Endless expansion is good , keeping lunatics with arms busy . When it is no longer available the lunatics with arms will be encouraged to expand back at home . And it is always smart to tell them to shut up and go back to "self declared" rules and norms and stuff . George Floyd's death has not been beaten , it would be shame if it was , etc , etc ...

 

[Bamspeedy]

As others point out, prove that it was caused by absence of police. It's as easy as what you're asking us to do.

In 2019 there were a total of 332 shooting incidents in Seattle alone. It doesn't sound way out of the ordinary for a few shootings to occur over the course of three weeks. It sucks but it doesn't exactly prove a case one way or the other to say "Look! Look! Shootings!"

Honestly it's just preaching to the choir. Theres another thread about gun violence if you want to tell us cops are all we need. See how it works over there.

Yes, 332 shooting incidents...... but only 18 fatal shootings, so about one fatal shooting every three weeks. So to get 2 in 2 weeks is higher rate, but odds are with 1 in 3 weeks being normal it isn't abnormal to have some stretches of 2 in 2 weeks since there are probably times where there is a month with no fatal shootings.

But, that is over the entire city, not one 6 block area.

So, let's just look at the East precinct. 47 shootings (once a week average), unknown how many were fatal. So lets look at another source,
http://www.seattle.gov/police/information-and-data/crime-dashboard
Sadly, 'shootings' is not on the drop down list. 'Homicide' for east precinct was 5 for the whole year. 2 in the Capital Hill neighborhood which is part of the east precinct. Capital hill consists of the 6 block protest zone and then some. Capital Hill neighborhood saw as many fatal shootings in 2 weeks as they saw in the entire 2019 year....if those homicides are indeed from shootings.

 

[El_Machinae]

Also asymmetrical warfare can be very effective at enacting political change. Governments facing a serious insurgency have always been forced to make some type of change. Iraq and Afghanistan are two recent examples of that.

Oh, I see where you're going here.

I am going to outright say that neither insurgency you quote looks the least bit 'successful', in that both places are pretty crappy places to live. There are intersecting goals (a) to make the place better and (b) to throw off an oppressor. Succeeding at (b) while failing at (a) isn't brag-worthy. No one involved in the BLM movement wants the place to become more like Afghanistan.

 

[Traitorfish]

Considering BLM appears to have done more to weaken police power—another arm of capitalist oppression—in a course of three months than the DSA or whatever in anything for the past three decades I know which way I should be standing for leftist solidarity too.

I don't think it's entirely honest to identify a broad-based and largely spontaneous movement against police brutality specifically with the Black Lives Matter organisation. Only a very small fraction of participants in the movement are directly affiliated with the BLM organisation, and there's never really been a suggestion that the BLM organisation has played a substantive role in leading or organising the movement.

The Black Lives Matter organisation has received an exaggerated role in media coverage because corporations hoping for good PR can make donations to "Black Lives Matter" with a lesser scrutiny as to the political implications than if they donated to the NAACP, or god forbid to a bail fund. I won't say that I fully agree with the characterisation of the BLM organisation as "neoliberal" (I think that is going to depend on some important choices made by the leadership of the organisation in the near future), it is a mistake to identify them as the tribune of the plebs simply because they share a name with a widely-used slogan.

 

[Seon]

Intent of the statement is pointing out the rather obvious by now fact that addressing a specifically race-related injustice (cops against black violence) resulted in universal progress in a lot of sectors (police reforms, discussion in high politics about funding more public works) in USA faster than more traditional and older leftist organizations and goals.

Ergo, the counterargument is specifically against people who blame BLM and its allies for making the issue specifically about race. As can be observed, dealing with racial injustice directly leads to universal good, while focusing on universal good does not appear to get anything accomplished in the states. The reason for this paradox is personally obvious to me because focusing on universal good while ignoring racial injustice is not actually the universal good, but this point seems lost on people.

Furthermore I’m not calling the organization the tribune of the plebs. Tribune of the plebs would imply that I acknowledge their leadership, which is not what I intend. The fight against police brutality is a horizontally organized one, and BLM are just one voice among many. What I’m saying that the people who are in the streets shouting BLM and people who work for the organization are more deserving of my solidarity and support at the moment than those who are criticizing it unfairly.

 

[Berzerker]

Yes, but what purpose does politicizing it fulfill?

People wanted CHAZ to show the cops aint needed, it showed the opposite.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I imagine they stayed up all night thinking, "Man, who can throw tear gas canisters and fire rubber bullets at us? I feel so unsafe right now.".

 

[Takhisis]

People wanted CHAZ to show the cops aint needed, it showed the opposite.

Thus spake the Libertarian.

 

[Berzerker]

reality bites

 

[Cloud_Strife]

reality bites

Worry not, the police won't spare you either the second they deem it permissable to waste you

 

[gay_Aleks]

Oh, with "libertarians" like these, I think he'll be wholeheartedly on the side of the police, at the current trajectory.

 

[Berzerker]

Worry not, the police won't spare you either the second they deem it permissable to waste you

The cops could have saved one of those kids who died, but CHAZ would not cooperate.

Oh, with "libertarians" like these, I think he'll be wholeheartedly on the side of the police, at the current trajectory.

I'm not on CHAZ side so that leaves the cops.

 

[Estebonrober]

0 and 1 are the only options!

 

[Berzerker]

you got a better one?

 

[Crezth]

Really gotta love it when libertarians just out themselves as fascists.