[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Cloud_Strife]

Sure, I've seen it happening. Still, I think the phenomenon itself exists and the article is reasonably fair and balanced about it, even if the label is otherwise frequently overused by white supremacists.

Let me be charitable to you.

White guilt/Self hatred is a dogwhistle used by white supremacists and their conservative allies to attack and negate any attempts to dealing with centuries of racial discrimination by implying it is somehow harmful to white people to address it.

White supremacy is a real and harmful thing, we're seeing it RIGHT NOW wrt the police so im not really sure how to read your comment...

Please clarify it, it's worrying me...

 

[Modder_Mode]

White self-hatred is a term used by white supremacists to describe white people who take issue with aspects of white culture or white supremacy, this is literally just giving it a fancy name.

The whole "you're just a white guilt liberal" thing is all about countering challenges to the white supremacists claims that they are "secretly supported by almost all white people." They are the bold warriors speaking out, but really everyone except for a few "slaves to white guilt" appreciate their heroism.

Such is their theory.

That's not what white guilt is.

White guilt is when a white person feels personally responsible for past injustices against people of other races and the guilt they feel is because they are white. They literally apologize for being white. And they also usually push onto other white people the notion that if they don't feel guilty then "you're a racist, bigot or some other catch phrase".

You can see this very thing on these forums if you pay attention.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

hey literally apologize for being white.

This is so disengenuous; there's a difference between apologizing for what our collective white ancestors have done throughout history, as well as apologizing for the white priviledge that all white people have that often comes at the material expense of PoC and apologizing for being white, but not only that i think that some people mistake being aware of their priviledge as an attempt at "apologizing" for their whiteness which is utter bull.

The whole conversation is so similar to the argument of german collective guilt and how that's being used by right-wing nationalist parties in their respective countries in an attempt to edge those societies closer to supposedly "absolving" themselves of what happened in the past; germans are ashamed of what happened in the past, in their country's name but they aren't ashamed nor do they apologize for BEING german, that's a distinction that conservatives don't seem to be able to grasp in their brains.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You can see this very thing on these forums if you pay attention.

Yes, if by "pay attention" you mean "hang around for more than 5 minutes".

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Well I'm sure you can post examples then if it's so obvious?

 

[Commodore]

Commodore, who is American ex-military and served in Afghanistan, says the military is actually held to a higher standard than police as it pertains to rules of engagement.

edit: or maybe Iraq, I forget.

I was in Iraq while still in the Army and Afghanistan while working as a PMC for a year.

And yes, the military is held to a higher standard than police. With that said though, I'm wary of the military taking over law enforcement duties for any extended period of time. If that happens the military will treat such duties as they would any other military operation. That means they would take all necessary measures to "control the battlespace" and that would lead to a curtailing of a lot of the freedoms we've grown accustomed to. For example, I don't think the average American will take too kindly to having a machine gun pointed at them while driving to work because they didn't stay at least 100 meters back from the convoy that's also driving on the freeway.

 

[Yeekim]

Its not a fault to have compassion and understanding of history to realize that north and western Europeans have a long history of white supremacy around the world that has lead to deleterious effects around that world.

No, of course it isn't.
It is, however, biased to only acknowledge the negative effects and fail to acknowledge the positive, or to pretend that there was/is something uniquely evil about whites/Europeans.
I've certainly witnessed both, even though I have no idea how prevalent it actually is.
I mean, there is a thin line between whataboutism and being actually fair and balanced, but still...

Let me be charitable to you.

White guilt/Self hatred is a dogwhistle used by white supremacists and their conservative allies to attack and negate any attempts to dealing with centuries of racial discrimination by implying it is somehow harmful to white people to address it.

White supremacy is a real and harmful thing, we're seeing it RIGHT NOW wrt the police so im not really sure how to read your comment...

Please clarify it, it's worrying me...

Just because something is frequently used as a dogwhistle does not by itself invalidate the underlying concept.
I believe one could say "socialism!" is used by US conservatives as a dogwhistle to attack and negate even any vaguely centrist policies, yet you presumably would not discount every discussion of "socialism" as right-wing propaganda.

For clarity, it is definitely not "oikophobic" to currently protest in US, even though an oikophobe would support the protests too.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's not what white guilt is.

White guilt is when a white person feels personally responsible for past injustices against people of other races and the guilt they feel is because they are white. They literally apologize for being white. And they also usually push onto other white people the notion that if they don't feel guilty then "you're a racist, bigot or some other catch phrase".

You can see this very thing on these forums if you pay attention.

Sure man.

I've been accused of white guilt on plenty of scum filled internet cesspools for confronting the "we really are representing, not the ignorant scummy edge of society they say we are" nonsense claims, so I stand by my read.

 

[Modder_Mode]

This is so disengenuous; there's a difference between apologizing for what our collective white ancestors have done throughout history, as well as apologizing for the white priviledge that all white people have that often comes at the material expense of PoC and apologizing for being white, but not only that i think that some people mistake being aware of their priviledge as an attempt at "apologizing" for their whiteness which is utter bull.

The whole conversation is so similar to the argument of german collective guilt and how that's being used by right-wing nationalist parties in their respective countries in an attempt to edge those societies closer to supposedly "absolving" themselves of what happened in the past; germans are ashamed of what happened in the past, in their country's name but they aren't ashamed nor do they apologize for BEING german, that's a distinction that conservatives don't seem to be able to grasp in their brains.

But that's not what's being demanded of them here.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But that's not what's being demanded of them here.

Who is demanding what from whom, in your opinion?

 

[Modder_Mode]

Sure man.

I've been accused of white guilt on plenty of scum filled internet cesspools for confronting the "we really are representing, not the ignorant scummy edge of society they say we are" nonsense claims, so I stand by my read.

That's your personal experience and world view, I'm not trying to take that away from you.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's your personal experience and world view, I'm not trying to take that away from you.

No, you are just trying to tell me the "real" meaning of the epithets I have been called. For the record, your condescending was unsurprising.

 

[Hrothbern]

Commodore, who is American ex-military and served in Afghanistan, says the military is actually held to a higher standard than police as it pertains to rules of engagement.

edit: or maybe Iraq, I forget.

Yes
but will that stay so once they take over police officer duties ?

You can think it is taking the right persons and put them in position is enough.
But when there are systemic issues with the positions... you will only burn those "right persons"

Organising stuff is about creating and maintaining the "right settings"

the military is now functioning in other "settings" much farther away from the pitfalls of a police station and the military has active "maintenance" in place (all those trainings) to keep the code at high level.

That military code is group code because you need each other all the way.
police officers are individuals using a common protection like in extremum BLM

=>
I think that military can only be used as transition per municipality (and not everywhere at the same time !)

The challenge is to design a new setting for police officers that does not become counter productive to the citizens it serves.

I was in Iraq while still in the Army and Afghanistan while working as a PMC for a year.

And yes, the military is held to a higher standard than police. With that said though, I'm wary of the military taking over law enforcement duties for any extended period of time. If that happens the military will treat such duties as they would any other military operation. That means they would take all necessary measures to "control the battlespace" and that would lead to a curtailing of a lot of the freedoms we've grown accustomed to. For example, I don't think the average American will take too kindly to having a machine gun pointed at them while driving to work because they didn't stay at least 100 meters back from the convoy that's also driving on the freeway.

see only now your answer
yes
those are other disadvantages

 

[Modder_Mode]

No, you are just trying to tell me the "real" meaning of the epithets I have been called. For the record, your condescending was unsurprising.

No condescension, you just appear to take other peoples opinions (or at least mine) as some kind of personal attack against you, so I thought I'd put it out there that your experiences and world view are just as I important as mine.

I have no problem with you or anyone else on this forum.

 

[aelf]

Weird isn't it how you seem to consistantly be against those who try to implement or push for social change or at the very least trying to discredit and downplay their activism.

Not at all troubling or telling whatsoever of your own personal opinions, it's almost as if you fear just coming straight out and saying what you really think.

There are only two things to do with Manfred posts. Either ignore them or laugh at them. Anything else is a total waste of time to do.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

There are only two things to do with Manfred posts. Either ignore them or laugh at them. Anything else is a total waste of time to do.

It's the level of bad faith that i take issue with, imagine me with all my history, entering a thread about minorities and then trying to position myself as some sort of neutral, disinterested detatched view

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No condescension, you just appear to take other peoples opinions (or at least mine) as some kind of personal attack against you, so I thought I'd put it out there that your experiences and world view are just as I important as mine.

I have no problem with you or anyone else on this forum.

You never answered.

Who is demanding what from whom, in your opinion?

 

[Arwon]

Commodore, who is American ex-military and served in Afghanistan, says the military is actually held to a higher standard than police as it pertains to rules of engagement.

edit: or maybe Iraq, I forget.

I would suggest both "held to" as well as "trained for" and "capable of doing".

 

[AmazonQueen]

BLM events in the UK seem to be very white, so I'm not sure it even matters what the black population in that area is.

Seeing what you want to see again Manfred?

Only 3% of the UK population is black or mixed race and over 90% are white according to the last census so its probably not surprising that the demonstrations have been predominantly white but black people were certainly there and formed a lot more than 3% of those present at the demo I attended in Cardiff.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Seeing what you want to see again Manfred?

Only 3% of the UK population is black or mixed race and over 90% are white according to the last census so its probably not surprising that the demonstrations have been predominantly white but black people were certainly there and formed a lot more than 3% of those present at the demo I attended in Cardiff.

"[he] told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was [his] final, most essential command..."