[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Cloud_Strife]

I think you'd be less safe if vigilantes and racists were allowed to run free.

So, unless you've been living under a rock, you'll find the problem is that the latter is actually already inside the police.

It sounds like you're proposing the destruction of all institutions. I don't see that ending well.

I specifically said the police. Don't be disengenuous, okay?

 

[cardgame]

And how are you going to replace it without facing the same issues? Do you think the military would do any better? And while I agree there are a lot of issues, I'm not saying there is a total failure.

If you support the police as an institution and want it to survive, you'd better be brainstorming too. Present form is unsustainable.

 

[Gorbles]

All I said was things are better and a final solution will take more time. I have asked for people to actually post a solution so I can discuss it and I did for those that did.
Maybe you should check out a mirror.

Cloud's given you more of a memory refresh than I could, so I leave that to her.

Maybe you should check your attitude the next time you consider patronising someone for theirs - honest advice.

I certainly support his firing at the very least. His jailing, that’s for the courts to decide and he should be given a fair trial. Based on what I know now, I would vote for conviction.

But the crimes you said in your post were for instigating arson, which is a stretch. Instigating arson would be going out and telling people to burn down buildings.

So, the jailing of the "bums" and whoever else you were referring to should also go through the courts, and you should be more hesitant to support their jailing than you claimed to be initially.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough, but not only does instigate semantically cover "starting", the evidence includes the crimes committed. It's not a stretch at all. It's literally what happened.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

As a general rule, people in the productive ranks of society do not go around ransacking businesses and start buildings on fire.

As evidence, I would like to cite the entire history of civilized society.

Except human history is full of examples of people conquering, raiding and ransacking entire civilizations and then rising about those they conquered, I mean jesus ****ing christ amadeus we both live(d) in one

Well, let’s get the names of these model citizens, upright and outstanding members of society, so that we can pin medals on them for their liberation of a shopping cart of Ding Dongs and Ho Hos. For they are the real heroes.

Last time protesters got identified a bunch of them died, so nah i'm not going to fulfil your sick lust.

 

[rah]

The police are a direct continuation of the institutions we had when black people were literal chattel and during Jim Crow,

Then I misread this statement. And you have made many comments in the past about other institutions.
How do you correct that police force without changing those institutions? I agree that there are institutions that need to be changed. But I don't think cleaning the slate works so there need to be specifics. Like, while the justice system has many flaws, it's better than no justice system.

Maybe you should check your attitude the next time you consider patronising someone for theirs - honest advice.

and maybe you should check people's actually posts before you make your accusations. Again you just made up that I inferred that everything was fixed.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

How do you correct that police force without changing those institutions?

The police, as we have them, are a direct, literal continuation of the institution that existed during the time of slavery, jim crow etc.

Even well after Jim Crow the racial discrimination did not end, in fact it does not end to this day! If you want to save what vestiges of authority the police have, THEY MUST disband and reform, remove themselves from the past nothing else will work.

I can't make this clear enough @rah, no matter the disadvantages that come from starting afresh, nothing less then that will truly deal with this issue.

That's how the bad the situation is; the police have been given enough time to get their **** together. They haven't.

 

[Estebonrober]

From Blaine in the north to Apple Valley in the south, I remember the suburbs ravaged by fires, riots, and looting.

And I remember when the totally not disgraced Rev. Jim Bakker got on his private jet and flew to Minneapolis to show solidarity with his people, and not stir up trouble or shake people down like he hadn’t been doing for the past four decades.

Violence is the last resort of politics. Looting and burning is a form of protest. I might no like it, but violence is more and more called for in these times. We as a people are being ignored and systematically disenfranchised.

 

[AmazonQueen]

All I said was things are better and a final solution will take more time. I have asked for people to actually post a solution so I can discuss it and I did for those that did.
Maybe you should check out a mirror.

I think what James Baldwin said about that 30 years ago is as relevant today.

The US has had another 30 years. How much time do you want for your progress?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

When you reduce someone's power or worth to buying and consuming, do not then complain when they resort to exactly that, but with violence instead of buying.

 

[rah]

@Cloud
There is no group ready and able to take over those duties. What happens in the interim?

Yes, there is still discrimination happening. But if you totally eliminate the police force, you're not going to eliminate racism.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I think what James Baldwin said about that 30 years ago is as relevant today.

The US has had another 30 years. How much time do you want for your progress?

And all the while the bodies continue to pile up and the effects of racial discrimination by law enforcement reinforce immense social disparities.

@Cloud
There is no group ready and able to take over those duties. What happens in the interim?

Yes, there is still discrimination happening. But if you totally eliminate the police force, you're not going to eliminate racism.

I do not trust the police to ever reform.

 

[rah]

Who will do those duties then? Or do you believe those duties are unnecessary?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Who will do those duties then? Or do you believe those duties are unnecessary?

Do you want to solve the problem or do you want a continuation of the status quo? That is fundamentally the real question here; are you willing to have a repeat of the last few days in exchange for not having the social and legal upheaval needed to address the situation?

Which is it?

 

[thecrazyscot]

My wife and I were talking about this last night, both absolutely horrified by the high-profile murders of black men during the past few weeks, and she asked me if it was wrong that she was glad our daughter looked more like me than her, because it meant she's less likely to be victimized and discriminated against.

I didn't really know what to say. I said something hollow about how it's not wrong to be grateful that life will not be as hard for your children, but it shattered me when she then rubbed her pregnant belly and told our unborn child that we would cross that bridge when we came to it.

She has so many wounds from growing up here. And she gets quietly wounded every time some new abuse happens to someone just because they're black. Wounds that I don't fully share because I just don't have the same context for them.

A while back I suggested we all go rent a cabin in the mountains for vacation. Her dad really resisted the idea, and I didn't really understand why. She explained: growing up black in the South, you didn't go into rural areas. You didn't go into the woods or the mountains where there wasn't a quick exit or a decent population center nearby that you could disappear into.

Yeah, I felt like an idiot, as I should.

And the efforts to provide equal opportunity - paradoxically - leave wounds too. She received a minority scholarship for her post-graduate schooling, and was accepted into the program at least partly based on diversity. She was wounded because her accomplishments couldn't speak for themselves. Even in her success, there was some sense of: "we'll give you some extra help to get there". It's insulting, even if the intent behind it is good.

 

[amadeus]

So, the jailing of the "bums" and whoever else you were referring to should also go through the courts, and you should be more hesitant to support their jailing than you claimed to be initially.

Yes, they are as entitled to a fair trial as anyone else. I’m just kind of tired of people making excuses for them; the looters and the arsonists are simnot victims.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough, but not only does instigate semantically cover "starting", the evidence includes the crimes committed. It's not a stretch at all. It's literally what happened.

I’m just trying to follow the things here. Person A commits a crime against Person B. Person C feels outraged and steals a TV. The two criminals here are A and C. The only victim is B.

Except human history is full of examples of people conquering, raiding and ransacking entire civilizations and then rising about those they conquered, I mean jesus ****ing christ amadeus we both live(d) in one

Fair point! Still would argue the looters and rioters aren’t very good citizens to begin with, and I suppose it’s good for all of us they aren’t in command of anything more than street violence.

Last time protesters got identified a bunch of them died, so nah i'm not going to fulfil your sick lust.

You have an overactive imagination re: my motivations.

Violence is the last resort of politics. Looting and burning is a form of protest. I might no like it, but violence is more and more called for in these times. We as a people are being ignored and systematically disenfranchised.

What of yours will you burn? Sorry, you can’t loot yourself since that’s a zero-sum game.

Edit: bungled the quote tags, twice, and clarified a sentence

 

[rah]

@Cloud
I want to use the pressure of the last few days to force more transparency on the police so improvements continue.
Many times these things happen it steps up the pressure. This is how we got to body cams and dash board cams. Those are steps in the right direction.
We need more steps.
But I don't see their elimination as a solution since there needs to be something in place.
I have yet to hear what your solution is for the interim. Which is what I'm asking.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Fair point! Still would argue the looters and rioters aren’t very good citizens to begin with, and I suppose it’s good for all of us they aren’t in command of anything more than street violence.

Sorry i forgot that instituional and military violence is much more nuanced and precise.

You have an overactive imagination re: my motivations.

Given your comments i'm pretty confident you don't really view the rioters as people who's actions can be understood under your frame of ideology.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

@Cloud
I want to use the pressure of the last few days to force more transparency on the police so improvements continue.
Many times these things happen it steps up the pressure. This is how we got to body cams and dash board cams. Those are steps in the right direction.
We need more steps.
But I don't see their elimination as a solution since there needs to be something in place.
I have yet to hear what your solution is for the interim. Which is what I'm asking.

There is no "solution" to not having social upheaval, America refused to deal with the whirlwind it reaped for centuries and this is the consequence of it; as long as white america turns a blind eye to the experiences of PoC race riots will continue and grow increasingly frequent..

The police will NEVER willingly accept reforms and our political class are too craven to hold them to account.

 

[amadeus]

I understand totally. They want TV, they take TV.

Now that the police are busy dealing with everything else going on, the risk:reward ratio has dropped to the point where the would-be thieves become just regular thieves.

 

[cardgame]

I've brought up a couple things I think, don't know if I got your feedback on them at all...

step 1 dissolve police unions for national security if nothing else, just shove that down their throats like Reagan's ATC if you have to.

https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/florida-officer-fired-6-times-ordered-rehired-again/

step 2 all personnel files disciplinary records need to be public. The murderer from May 25 had a body count and 12 complaints of excessive force/brutality, all of which were closed with no punishment. Clearly the oversight is nonexistent. Create a brand new division of FBI or DHS or whatever agency is appropriate that is dedicated exclusively to hunting down bad cops. Internal Affairs for the entire nation. This is pretty involved cause it's gonna require some degree of federalization of our police system, local, county, state, all need to be on the same page here.

step 3 criminal prosecution must be decoupled from the police. I don't know how exactly that would happen but its necessity is obvious.

step 4 disarm the police, give them their guns back when they go through additional training/retraining similar to what the rest of the world has. SWAT can keep theirs. New police officers don't get a gun, period, for 1 year probationary period. Once you have a gun you are subject to EXACTLY THE SAME STANDARDS (with certain appropriate exceptions like open carry, maybe) as any private, non-LEO CCW licensee. No more fudging cowboys.

step 5 Re-establish the COMMUNITY in community policing. Cops must patrol the areas where they, themselves, live. No more us vs them bull. No arrest quotas, ever.

any additions? I'm sure I've left something out that's kind of important. Like step 6, mandatory body cameras for everyone all the time. Arrests made without body cam or dashcam footage can be straight-up dismissed in court without sufficient other evidence.