[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

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Step 1. While I like the concept I do believe they need some protection so what they can protect them from needs to be greatly reduced but not totally eliminated.
Step 2. Pretty much agree.
Step 3. Yeah, don't know how this could work.
Step 4. Mostly agree but until you disarm the general population that are limits to how much you want to disarm them.
Step 5 Agree, my only objection that this restriction might leave some areas most in need without any protection. That's a separate issue.

I do believe that 5 is the most important. Accountability would improve immediately.
 
This can go alongside step 1, step 7... all lawsuits against police come out of the police pension pool. No more taxpayer footing the bill. You behave yourself or you lose your retirement. You better snitch on your fellow bad cops if they're gonna cost you your retirement. This incentive system sounds fantastic to me. Will probably need to be tweaked a bit based on budgets/PD size, a small town with 12 cops probably can't afford to pay out a 12 million dollar settlement. But the point is you have to hurt the cops or they aren't going to give a damn who they hurt.
 
Dissolve the public sector unions? That's a Wisconsinite horsehockyshow of a wet dream.

What, threaten to impoverish thier spouses working jobs that won't vest social security by constantly threatening thier pension? That one is getting personal.

So if she gets the grabber next year, and some.vubba fudgs up in 10 years, put farm boy on the welfare retirement program? Can't say this seems great.
 
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I don't know card. Having your retirement fund trashed a month before you retire because of something you had nothing to do with is excessive in my book.
You want to attract better people to the job, not the more desperate.
 
we don't have to implement every single one of my ideas. just brainstorming here. I do think 1-6 have strong foundations.
 
Yes, hurting anyone related when there's something to be mad about is as solid as they come, politically. :lol:
 
step 4 disarm the police, give them their guns back when they go through additional training/retraining similar to what the rest of the world has. SWAT can keep theirs. New police officers don't get a gun, period, for 1 year probationary period. Once you have a gun you are subject to EXACTLY THE SAME STANDARDS (with certain appropriate exceptions like open carry, maybe) as any private, non-LEO CCW licensee. No more ******* cowboys

SWAT shouldn't even get to keep theirs. They can do their job with non-lethal weapons. They don't need firearms either. Especially considering SWAT are usually the biggest offenders when it comes to questionable police shootings.

Step 4. Mostly agree but until you disarm the general population that are limits to how much you want to disarm them.

Nah, I'm perfectly okay with the general population having a firepower advantage over law enforcement. It would force police to approach situations more diplomatically and focus more on deescalation simply out of fear of getting shot in the face if they are too aggressive.
 
Swat over response is nuts. Most of the time just fudging chilling out would be better. So long as they aren't unsymapthetics what people want to watch die on the news, but that's just the colloseum in action.
 
Nah, I'm perfectly okay with the general population having a firepower advantage over law enforcement. It would force police to approach situations more diplomatically and focus more on deescalation simply out of fear of getting shot in the face if they are too aggressive.

That doesn't even happen now with people with more firepower
 
I don't know card. Having your retirement fund trashed a month before you retire because of something you had nothing to do with is excessive in my book.
You want to attract better people to the job, not the more desperate.

His plan only attacks the pension if cops don't snitch on their fellow officers. So if you are a month from retirement, you better become Snitchy McSnitchpants on your fellow officers to protect your retirement.

That doesn't even happen now with people with more firepower

Because cops know they have an entire army of other armed cops that will give them a firepower advantage of anything goes down. Take away all their guns and they will become a lot less willing to escalate things.

The key to checking the power of any authority figure is to make them legitimately fear for their very lives if they begin to abuse the power they have been given. That fear does not exist among the current authority figures in this country which is why things have gotten so out of hand.
 
It also matters who you get. Jail guards is often enough anyone who seems willing to show up, depending on where. Like warehouses would fire these people. Not all of them, no, but it's problematic.

Edit: I should try and work out the greater point, which seems a twofold problem. First, it's not an aspirational job. You don't get people who want to be famous or earth shattering, the best you get are probably of the good steward mindset, the caretaker. Like to compete with potential good matches for nursing. At their best. Second, it's a job with a lot of potential for abuse and that means that there are, if there are anywhere, hoops to jump through to demonstrate virtue rather than character. Because virtue can be accredited. They have to be squeaky on a background check. So they probably aren't pot smokers. But they start working with pot smokers on testing when they get desperate enough. They don't have bad credit scores. Because people with bad credit are broke and broke people steal and take bribes. So best you remember not to be a pre-thief by being broke and needing a job you unscrupulous dog! They probably don't have DUIs from when they were young. See, you can't have anything that would come back on a background check as predictable means the department will get its butt sued off later if anything goes wrong. So you get this moronic liability terror driven hiring process. That's already institutionalized. It's a feature and you are witnessing its performance.
 
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As a long term member of our trade union, and full throated trade unionist more generally, I just want to note here that cop unions are always the worst.
 
I have not been following this closely. I avoid watching videos of all sorts. But I have been looking into this for the last two hours.

The policemen's conduct was simply criminal. I am especially impressed by the number of police organizations that have come out to say so.
 
As a long term member of our trade union, and full throated trade unionist more generally, I just want to note here that cop unions are always the worst.

Spoiler They're All Like That :
 
I have not been following this closely. I avoid watching videos of all sorts. But I have been looking into this for the last two hours.

The policemen's conduct was simply criminal. I am especially impressed by the number of police organizations that have come out to say so.

Basically every single one that has commented, right? Except for MPD.
 
His plan only attacks the pension if cops don't snitch on their fellow officers. So if you are a month from retirement, you better become Snitchy McSnitchpants on your fellow officers to protect your retirement.



Because cops know they have an entire army of other armed cops that will give them a firepower advantage of anything goes down. Take away all their guns and they will become a lot less willing to escalate things.

The key to checking the power of any authority figure is to make them legitimately fear for their very lives if they begin to abuse the power they have been given. That fear does not exist among the current authority figures in this country which is why things have gotten so out of hand.
I don't see the wisdom in jumping all the way from granting police officers near-total authority with almost no accountability to making them fear for their lives. I'd like to try giving them proper training, holding them accountable for their actions, and building out the larger framework of criminal justice around them first. Maybe after we genuinely try some constructive ideas, if those don't pan out, we could threaten them with death. We haven't really committed to repairing a clearly-broken system yet, but the small, tentative steps we've taken (bail reform; drug courts; veterans courts) have shown some promise. I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I'd like to live in a society with less shooting of people rather than more, including of police officers. I'd bet the guy who knelt on George Floyd's neck wasn't even worried about his colleagues telling him to cut the crap, or about his sergeant assigning him garbage duty for a week, or about his lieutenant tearing him a new [nostril], nevermind about being fired or charged with a crime (I read somewhere that this specific officer had multiple complaints against him, and nothing was ever done - I don't have a link handy, though). And, frankly, the possibility that police officers might get shot doesn't seem to deter this kind of behavior. On the contrary, it's one of the things that people use to justify it. I think police officers already frequently characterize their job as akin to a war, and try to arm themselves accordingly. Ramping up the violence doesn't seem to make violent people less violent. And anyway, even if we did have an armed insurrection that somehow put a lid on the problem, we would still need a comprehensive overhaul of the entire criminal justice system. Just for starters, I'd like to see a 100% turnout rate by African-Americans and anyone else interested in criminal justice reform at the polls this Fall. I won't hold my breath, but maybe I'll cross my fingers.
 
I quite like the South Korea idea, where the lower levels of the police are filled by national service. This would really allow community policing, as everyone will have been on both sides in a few generations.
 
Trump's not even trying to hold back on his dogwhistles


I think it has more to do with the fact that the protesters in MN are protesting the police while the ones in MI are protesting a democrat governor that Trump has been against and combative with some spats across twitter. Also it's been rumored that Whitmer is in consideration for running mate for Biden. She seems clearly a political opponent of Trump, I think this has less to do with the color of the protesters and just with riling up his base, political stances etc. Which is still disgusting.
 
I think it has more to do with the fact that the protesters in MN are protesting the police while the ones in MI are protesting a democrat governor that Trump has been against and combative with some spats across twitter. Also it's been rumored that Whitmer is in consideration for running mate for Biden.

Be careful you don't damage your spine doing all that heavy lifting there
 
Law forbids stereotyping. Law demands evidence for that one unique person who is suspect of crime.

That's our system, and in this case, already stated here, it is have Justice take its course of action.

But hey
Can you treat this incident as just an incident ? or is it systemic ?
And if systemic, what I do believe, than treating all those many "incidental" cases by Law... Law always forced to treat any case as an incidental case based on evidence and nevere based on stereotyping... you never stop this sickness.

Is it then not correct to conclude that a Constitution, a Judicial system, are not capable and not designed to handle this sickness ?

So how then does a country handle this sickness ?

We had in Amsterdam a in the 70ies a nice police station since ages in the Warmoestraat in Amsterdam for the red-light district. A towering amount of corruption, drugs, etc, etc.
All actions to improve the situation failed, the ingroup defense culture too strong.
It was finally solved by disbanding the whole unit and IIRC that police station became a Hotel for tourists.

Systemic issues need systemic answers and actions.
 
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