[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Commodore]

I've been on a few demos and riot police or mounted police can be pretty intimidating especially for a crowd that includes families etc.
I don't think we can expect protesters to take on police or the military. Most revolutions have only succeeded when even the police and military no longer back the government.

I think Che Guevara's approach to revolution is the way to go if you can't get the military and police on your side. His strategy calls for the formation of a small core of actual guerilla fighters who do the "heavy lifting" of directly engaging with government forces while fomenting popular demonstrations/rioting to just serve as a distraction to keep the government from focusing all of its attention and forces on that small core of guerilla fighters.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

How did he get robbed? He lost the election. Even if every Warren voter had voted Sanders, he’d still be behind Biden by 2,500,000 votes.

The DNC turned against him, essentially. Sure his campaign was flawed, and it's entirely possible that he would have lost even if the majority of the party hadn't decided to actively work against him, but it's still a testament to how much of a reactionary party it is. The dems are the only meaningful alternative in a 2 party system and they're almost equally conservative and bellicose. They're almost equally against the interests of the worker, or really anyone who isn't rich. It was the last straw for me. I never had much respect for Biden anyway, but it's entirely clear that he's a status quo war hawk just like Hillary. If the conserative candidate was someone like McCain.. honestly there would be almost no meaningful difference. I also think that Trump may win again because Biden is equally demented, yet far less charismatic or polarizing. The man can openly be blamed to have raped someone and everyone besides a few journalists and twitter fans just collectively shrug their shoulders. Bernie might have had a better chance at beating Trump, or not, but him losing the primaries killed a lot of the hopes I had irregardless. Irrespective of me liking him politically, I just think he's a far better person to lead a country as important as the US, handle crises, show good judgement and character, stay level-headed and protect the interests of Americans. Surely better than the two you're stuck with now.

I think Che Guevara's approach to revolution is the way to go if you can't get the military and police on your side. His strategy calls for the formation of a small core of actual guerilla fighters who do the "heavy lifting" of directly engaging with government forces while fomenting popular demonstrations/rioting to just serve as a distraction to keep the government from focusing all of its attention and forces on that small core of guerilla fighters.

Fun fact: It is likely that the CIA were advised by ex-SS Nazis who fled after WW2 in some of their strategy for Latin America. One of those SS officers, Klaus Barbie, was involved in the Bolivian coup d'etat and was possibly an advisor during the time the US was trying to catch Guevara. Really interesting read, as always the real conspiracies turn out much more interesting than the tinfoil hat ones. Barbie also worked for the BND, German intelligence service, which is totally insane considering his past. Seems they were pretty okay with essentially giving him immunity for his war crimes, which were numerous and horrifying. Probably equal in terms of disgusting with sociopaths like Dirlewanger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie

 

[red_elk]

Even the people that didn't disperse were now not looting anymore.

Perhaps the amount of looting is not a perfect measure to estimate the resolve of protesters...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The DNC turned against him, essentially.

Ummm...Sanders isn't a Democrat, so how can the DNC "turn against" someone who has always been a declared opponent?

Sanders at the top of the ticket would have thrown a huge number of down ticket races to the Republicans. The candidates in those races endorsed Biden, for obvious reasons, and that influence basically drives the DNC. That's how it works, and how it's supposed to work.

I think Che Guevara's approach to revolution is the way to go if you can't get the military and police on your side. His strategy calls for the formation of a small core of actual guerilla fighters who do the "heavy lifting" of directly engaging with government forces while fomenting popular demonstrations/rioting to just serve as a distraction to keep the government from focusing all of its attention and forces on that small core of guerilla fighters.

I agree, but I don't know how it can be applied. There has never been an theory for revolution in a nation anywhere near the size or population being dealt with here. Interdependency is also a problem since failure of the infrastructure will lead to a genuinely unprecedented and staggering casualty rate. I think without a Gorbachov we are headed towards an absolutely epic bloodbath.

 

[red_elk]

We can send Gorbachov to you btw, if that's all what it takes.

 

[Estebonrober]

We can send Gorbachov to you btw, if that's all what it takes.

I mean if that were to happen should Putin get the "greatest geopolitical strategist of all time" award? lol @ this timeline.

 

[H4run]

I think Che Guevara's approach to revolution is the way to go if you can't get the military and police on your side. His strategy calls for the formation of a small core of actual guerilla fighters who do the "heavy lifting" of directly engaging with government forces while fomenting popular demonstrations/rioting to just serve as a distraction to keep the government from focusing all of its attention and forces on that small core of guerilla fighters.

I imagine before something like that happened at certain point when American military involved they would naturally divided from within between the pro change and pro establishment. After that either a coup or a civil war might happened (Trump would not step down peacefully I guess), but I would not imagine a scenario of armed militia vs regular army like in Cuba, and it will be so hard to make guerrilla warfare work in America.

 

[Commodore]

I agree, but I don't know how it can be applied. There has never been an theory for revolution in a nation anywhere near the size or population being dealt with here

Taking and holding territory would definitely be out of the question. No glorious images of revolutionaries marching triumphantly into DC ousting the old political class from power.

I'm thinking the route to go would be to focus on demoralizing the military and police to the point they refuse to fight or enforce the government's will. Without an army to back them, the government would be forced to surrender power.

 

[Joij21]

Perhaps the amount of looting is not a perfect measure to estimate the resolve of protesters...

Except a lot of the people on this forum seem to want things to get more violent so they can overthrow the government or something like that. I totally agree that the peaceful protesters there have great resolve to continue protesting. Clearly the looters do not however, and the keyboard warriors here think the looters are the only true path forward. I don't understand how people who are never going to go to these places to protest themselves think violent actions will win the day when those who are committing such violence are being rounded up by the police and being arrested. Also like I said those cheering for the violent rioters who haven't been arrested are watching them flee from the police, tv in hand, pulling up their pants as they flee like cowards.

 

[red_elk]

Except a lot of the people on this forum seem to want things to get more violent so they can overthrow the government or something like that. I totally agree that the peaceful protesters there have great resolve to continue protesting. Clearly the looters do not however, and the keyboard warriors here think the looters are the only true path forward.

Attacking cops and burning police stations is not looting.
Stealing TVs and pants from local shops is not violence.

 

[H4run]

the keyboard warriors here think the looters are the only true path forward.

Of course, 2 veteran are keyboard warrior in front of a real man like you while the rest of us are just slimes in front of your blazing masculinity

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Taking and holding territory would definitely be out of the question. No glorious images of revolutionaries marching triumphantly into DC ousting the old political class from power.

I'm thinking the route to go would be to focus on demoralizing the military and police to the point they refuse to fight or enforce the government's will. Without an army to back them, the government would be forced to surrender power.

what America needs now is a few very talented organizers and a prodigy hacker. After all that's probably the single most powerful way an individual can attack an institution/govt.

now that I think about it it's plain weird that no one has successfully hacked Trumps twitter account yet.

 

[aelf]

Except a lot of the people on this forum seem to want things to get more violent so they can overthrow the government or something like that. I totally agree that the peaceful protesters there have great resolve to continue protesting. Clearly the looters do not however, and the keyboard warriors here think the looters are the only true path forward. I don't understand how people who are never going to go to these places to protest themselves think violent actions will win the day when those who are committing such violence are being rounded up by the police and being arrested. Also like I said those cheering for the violent rioters who haven't been arrested are watching them flee from the police, tv in hand, pulling up their pants as they flee like cowards.

The looting makes it costly for everyone affected to ignore the problem. They will in turn apply political pressure on the levels of government as needed.

But, of course, violence is not limited to looting. It can also be used to eliminate the root cause of the problem.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Though I mean honestly guys. Do they really look that organized at night when they riot? They are not focused, looting shops instead of government buildings. Many of their leaders have also been arrested for what they have posted on social media. So once the rabble rousers guiding them are behind bars the aggressive part of the movement will die. Then it will be just a normal peaceful protest that will go on until the media cycle changes. Like once something else more crazy (like little Kimmy acting up again) happens elsewhere and unrelated, the media will turn their heads away like squirrels. Then the nation focuses on that instead and the protests are forgotten.

I don't think that's going to happen so long as Trump feels he needs to act the strongman.
That's probably why conservatives like Dubya (not known for his sympathy towards black communities) are coming out of the woodwork and making conciliatory statements. They want things to calm down and the police able to carry on as usual but Trump is keeping the spotlight on police brutality by causing more of it when cameras are there.

 

[Joij21]

Of course, 2 veteran are keyboard warrior in front of a real man like you while the rest of us are just slimes in front of your blazing masculinity

I meant other people on this forum. But yeah there are also crazy vets here who actually might do something.

Attacking cops and burning police stations is not looting.
Stealing TVs and pants from local shops is not violence.

And yet people want more of this to happen when we have already seen a steady decline of it.

The looting makes it costly for everyone affected to ignore the problem. They will in turn apply political pressure on the levels of government as needed.

But, of course, violence is not limited to looting. It can also be used to eliminate the root cause of the problem.

Its mostly peaceful now and very unlikely it will get worse.

 

[Traitorfish]

The conventional leftist take on policing is that it is intended to protect private property and the authority of the police, that they are the hired goons of the business class and government officials.

The American police don't seem to be following that script. They are deliberately provoking riots, and thus the destruction of property. As demonstrated in Kentucky, they are murdering business-owners. As demonstrated in New York, they are threatening and assaulting government officials. It resembles nothing so much as a criminal cartels trying to maintain their protection racket through a display of force. They appear less as the hired thugs of a feudal lord extracting resent in the form of taxes and cheap labour, than they do a viking horde extract tribute from the lord in the form of funding.

The Republican leadership appear to support these abuses because they prefer to be seen as barbarians than as weaklings, but on some level they must be terrified at the realisation their dogs have slipped the leash. I have a very deep suspicion that the threats to send in the army are not to "restore order", but to take control away from the police.

 

[aelf]

The conventional leftist take on policing is that it is intended to protect private property and the authority of the police, that they are the hired goons of the business class and government officials.

The American police don't seem to be following that script. They are deliberately provoking riots, and thus the destruction of property. As demonstrated in Kentucky, they are murdering business-owners. As demonstrated in New York, they are threatening and assaulting government officials. It resembles nothing so much as a criminal cartels trying to maintain their protection racket through a display of force. They appear less as the hired thugs of a feudal lord extracting resent in the form of taxes and cheap labour, than they do a viking horde extract tribute from the lord in the form of funding.

The Republican leadership appear to support these abuses because they prefer to be seen as barbarians than as weaklings, but on some level they must be terrified at the realisation their dogs have slipped the leash. I have a very deep suspicion that the threats to send in the army are not to "restore order", but to take control away from the police.

That seems almost optimistic, as I suspect the Republican leadership is more fascistic now and do want a rabid police force that will smash anyone who doesn't back their fascistic ideology, property owners or not.

 

[zxcvbob]

The conventional leftist take on policing is that it is intended to protect private property and the authority of the police, that they are the hired goons of the business class and government officials.

The American police don't seem to be following that script. They are deliberately provoking riots, and thus the destruction of property. As demonstrated in Kentucky, they are murdering business-owners. As demonstrated in New York, they are threatening and assaulting government officials. It resembles nothing so much as a criminal cartels trying to maintain their protection racket through a display of force. They appear less as the hired thugs of a feudal lord extracting resent in the form of taxes and cheap labour, than they do a viking horde extract tribute from the lord in the form of funding.

The Republican leadership appear to support these abuses because they prefer to be seen as barbarians than as weaklings, but on some level they must be terrified at the realisation their dogs have slipped the leash. I have a very deep suspicion that the threats to send in the army are not to "restore order", but to take control away from the police.

They could put a little fear back into the police by prosecuting a 100 or so for civil rights violations, and putting a few of those to death for it. That will take a while, so they better get started.

 

[Yeekim]

Taking and holding territory would definitely be out of the question. No glorious images of revolutionaries marching triumphantly into DC ousting the old political class from power.

I'm thinking the route to go would be to focus on demoralizing the military and police to the point they refuse to fight or enforce the government's will. Without an army to back them, the government would be forced to surrender power.

I admit I've greatly amused myself today with mental images of deposed Trump asking asylum from Russia.

 

[REDY]

I know american police only from movies and games (my avatar is from Robocop), so I am asking why is the he main problem? Autonomous fascist system? Law? Low wages? Race? Low qualification? "Power corrupts"?