[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Estebonrober]

Abolitionism was a pretty radical position. One that Grant, despite his upbringing, did not espouse until his wife's last slave ran away in 1863.

That said, it is hard to argue that, as commander of the Union forces and later as President, he was one of the people who most helped enforce emancipation and protect the rights of the emancipated people.

Yea and I think tearing down statues of non confederate Americans distracts from real policy goals and drains political capital from our reserves. There is no reason to let morons run around tearing down everything bronze they can find, especially since it hurts our chances on real police reform on a national level.

Renaming Columbus Ohio is a distraction. There I said it. I said the obvious.

 

[Senethro]

Honestly I’m surprised more outbreaks of people being mad as hell at this obviously fake and hypocritical society don’t happen. When debate has been poisoned and coopted, why not just lash out and smash stuff?

 

[Estebonrober]

Honestly I’m surprised more outbreaks of people being mad as hell at this obviously fake and hypocritical society don’t happen. When debate has been poisoned and coopted, why not just lash out and smash stuff?

Me too. I've read in places that reducing lead in the water supply has dramatically reduced overall violence in the US, but I'm pretty sure the reduction in violence is global on a per capita basis. That's actually an interesting hole to go down one day.

 

[Traitorfish]

Laugh all you want I don't want gulags, great leaps forward, and state mandated atheism in my USA. And the majority of Americans don't want those things either.

You already have mass incarceration, deindustralisation, and state-mandated Evangelical Christianity. At a certain point, you're just describing your preferred flavour of authoritarian government.

that helps his case sure, but grant was still a terrible person for other reasons (notably his treatment of indigenous people). is douglas macarthur a good person because he fought against the japanese empire?

My impression of Grant is that his attitude to the Indians nations was one of genuine good faith, and that his failure to shift the American relations with the Great Plains nations was that he lacked the political skill or resources to overcome two hundred years of inertia, rather than any personal hostility towards Indians.

 

[r16]

expansion is the law of the times . lndians have nothing , Washington has everything , what else could have happened ?

 

[Traitorfish]

Oh whether the leadership of the organization will turn towards that or not is irrelevant, and neither am I claiming that BLM as an organization should turn to class based politics. I'm saying that it is rather apparent that race-based politics leads to much more active class-based politics alongside it, because the two issues are intrinsically linked. Increased awareness of racism in our society also increases awareness of the struggling poor. Study of history of racism inevitably leads to analysis how stripping of material wealth and opportunities leads to decrease of political power and representation. Before that, we are confronted with how the slave drivers in their pursuit of wealth indulged in inhumane practices.

Why would I want BLM to abandon race-based politics or align themselves more with class based politics? I allege that's a false dichotomy, because for the most of the cases, the two are simply one and the same. As long as BLM retains their anti-racist and anti-establishment drive, they would be aligned with the socialist goal of an egalitarian society. More their message gets spread, more people will be able to see the class-based injustice that is also inherent in racism.

I agree with this, but the specific point under question was the character of the Black Lives Matter organisation, whether or not it it an organisation of "the left". What you're describing is what the organisation should do, not what it is. Whether Black Lives Matter falls into the Democratic Party orbit or pivots towards mass organisation depends on certain choices made by the leadership, and the content of that choice is between the patronage of the largest political party in the Western world or the hard and often dispiriting work of grass-roots political organising. We cannot assume that because maintaining and deepening an anti-establishment orientation would be most consistent with their stated ambitions, they will pursue that course of action. The history of small organisations staffed primarily by college-educated activists is to fall towards the NGO-party complex, and towards the personal and organisational security that represents.

I don't think it would be appropriate for me to dismiss the leadership of the Black Lives Matter organisation as liberal careerists, but I do feel it is necessary to observe that they are only now being faced with the sorts of choices which would determine whether this description is accurate.

 

[Takhisis]

Nothing about the US qualifies as ancient history, and things like slavery and other forms of institutional racism barely even qualify as "distant".

Distant only in the narrowest, legal sense.
NYT has compiled information on how in the US Covid-19 is twice as deadly for Blacks (the former slaves) and Hispanics (y'know, those who were conquered during the slavery era and whose lands, had the Manifest Destiny project been continued, would have been incorporated as slave states) and, even better: Employer-Based health care, meets massive unemployment (guess who're those worst affected by employment problems).

 

[GenMarshall]

Employer-Based health care, meets massive unemployment (guess who're those worst affected by employment problems).

This only serves a strong case, for me at least, to have a basic government offered health care that’s not tied to employer based health insurance. Especially if your unemployed, irregardless of race.

As for employment problems, that I have no idea on how to solve that or where to narrow down the start aside from lack of skills or racial biases held by the interviewer/Human Resources personnel.

 

[Takhisis]

This only serves a strong case, for me at least, to have a basic government offered health care that’s not tied to employer based health insurance.

Yes, go on.

 

[GenMarshall]

Yes, go on.

Im still new at immersing myself in social democracy so I can’t go into further details on it .

 

[Takhisis]

Immerse yourself more.

 

[Seon]

Well the thing is that whenever people try to provide a more universal solution that will benefit everyone, the conservatives come harking fears about 'parasites' and 'welfare queens' and claim that such a non-employer based solution is an unacceptable breach of our rights that will only make the lives of 'these kinds of people' better.

Considering the utter failure of the American left to pass almost any kind of progressive agenda except for the bandaid obamacare for the last 10-20 years, I am inclined to agree that the conservative propaganda is widely successful. But here's something to note: the popular imagination and most depiction of these 'welfare queens' and 'parasites' are throughly raced. They are depicted as indolent women of usually either Latino or Black ancestry.

In short, raising fears of blacks and immigrants 'undeservedly' getting needed support from the government also serves to cut poor whites from getting the same support they need.

Here we can observe that racism is a direct part of conservative effort to deny justice and improvement in living standards, not just for blacks or Latino, but also for the poor whites. Ergo, all progressive actions going forward must necessarily and specifically include an anti-racist bent, if only to counter the conservative propaganda that blacks and Latino, and by extension, poor whites, do not deserve support from the government.

 

[Takhisis]

Here we can observe that racism is a direct part of conservative effort to deny justice and improvement in living standards, not just for blacks or Latino, but also for the poor whites.

As I've been saying for a while, race (determined by colour and/or facial charateristics) is a good help in maintaining what is, as I posted a few days ago, a caste system.

 

[Berzerker]

Why did black families stay intact better before welfare?

 

[cardgame]

Why did black families stay intact better before welfare?

Do you want the answer or do you want to crow 'gotcha'? I believe either BirdJag or ElMac (apologies if I'm wrong) already explained in a paragraph or three that the war on poverty introduced some perverse incentives that were a mistake, and furthermore that this does not discredit welfare as a whole. Additionally, the war on drugs began to hit a lot harder shortly after, so you can hardly blame bad welfare policies alone.

 

[Estebonrober]

Why did black families stay intact better before welfare?

Same reasons white families did?

 

[Berzerker]

Do you want the answer or do you want to crow 'gotcha'? I believe either BirdJag or ElMac (apologies if I'm wrong) already explained in a paragraph or three that the war on poverty introduced some perverse incentives that were a mistake, and furthermore that this does not discredit welfare as a whole. Additionally, the war on drugs began to hit a lot harder shortly after, so you can hardly blame bad welfare policies alone.

The drug war reduced on-the-job fathers and welfare replaced them, so more households led by single mothers.

Same reasons white families did?

Some... Shouldn't those reasons be addressed?

 

[cardgame]

Is anyone not trying to address those reasons?

 

[Berzerker]

I dont see it... We still have a drug war and welfare.

 

[cardgame]

I'm confident that about half the people in this thread would like to end both, and 95% would like to end the drug war.